new FAP breakdown

[stepan.razin]

Just finished a nice War 10 battle. Drakh vs ISA and Narn.... White Stars were dropping like flies.

With the new FAP, will the Macu carrier change? Just seems like an obsene number of ships for free. I didnt see any sort of discussion on this at all before.

Also, shouldn't the battle choice cruiser take up a little less room in the mothership?

The enforcer seems ok.

 

[Hindsight]

White Stars were dropping like flies.

=(

 

[Tolwyn]

White Stars were dropping like flies.

=(

So the Whitestar has become flea instead of a hornet :evil:

 

[CZuschlag]

I've brought it up twice, but it doesn't seem to be getting much traction. However, I can see where they don't want to tweak it:

1). The pertinent change in the breakdown that affects the Carrier is 1 Raid + 2 Skirmish vs. 4 Skirmish. The Ma'cu as it stands permits the latter, whereas with FAP, the closest that you can get is the former. The combat firepower between the two options isn't very large; so, if you are basing the change on the changes in FAP, you wouldn't want to change the Carrier much.

2). The community as a whole seems to have a rather poor view of the Carrier. I don't get this one. I love the CV --- in specific fights. If the battle gets big, I think the CV is a big loser; it can easily suffer from sudden fatality syndrome, and if you get no terrain, is in great peril for its life. However, in 5-Skirmish or so fights with terrain, it's absolutely deadly. I think it's the thematic ship in the Drakh fleet (not the Amu!) and use of these is the difference between the decent Drakh players and the great ones.

I don't anticipate a change, but I can see asking for one, too.

--------------------------------------------

Edit: Keep in mind, much of this game is Rock-Paper-Scissors, and it just so happens the Drakh have the Rock (Sa'ria'stor) for the WhiteStar scissors.

 

[Hindsight]

Yea I wouldn't see a point in taking White Stars to a War level game, but the alternative, to me anyway, is ships that don't reflect the fleet. Thats a shame. We have great mid level options, but the high end craft seem to favor other races. Most canon ships are big, and are high up on the PL in this game, and that just doesn't favor the White Stars, where yea, they go from a hornet to a flea.

I wish this game just had points values like every other game :/

 

[Da Boss]

We have great mid level options, but the high end craft seem to favor other races. Most canon ships are big, and are high up on the PL in this game, and that just doesn't favor the White Stars, where yea, they go from a hornet to a flea.
:/

Doesn't the ISA have one of the best high level ships - the Victory?

plus in say, a War level game you can take the canon Sharlin (or varients) (very good ship) or even your own Sharlin varient...........

please don't say the ISA has no choice - that is very wrong.........even if you (artifically) restrict yourself to canon only.

if the White Star kicked ass at war level it would be a little broken for a raid level ship? They usually do Ok at that level as long as they bide their time a little - or squadron up - a powerful option given their weapons.

 

[Greg Smith]

2). The community as a whole seems to have a rather poor view of the Carrier. I don't get this one.

Yet it seems almost every Drakh player I've faced seems to bring one to a battle. I guess the non-Drakh players dislike it.

 

[Hindsight]

Ok, don't put words into my mouth. The Tara'lin is weak vs. a canon Sharlin, and whether its a variant or not, its a Sharlin hull so I can call it whatever I want and have it fit into a show representative list.

This thread is about the FAP breakdown. The ISA is all about the White Star Fleet, so whether I have access to the Excalibur or not, I'd have that, maybe a Sharlin or some Earth Cruisers, and just a ton of White Stars.

Thats just how the ISA rolls. 10 War points, becomes 8 after the Victory, 6 after a Sharlin and a Tara'lin, leaving me what used to be a lot more white stars, and now only leaving me with 18, losing a total of six White Stars in the split.

When I build my lists, I build towards what we see in the show, and the ISA has a fleet of White Stars, supported by a handful of capital ships. I know the Degoto was in combat a lot, so it wouldn't surprised me if even the army of light only had access to like three sharlins at any given time.

So yea, at this PL, I'd have to take Gunships instead of White Stars, as I wouldn't take any loses from the PL, and the Gunship is basically two White Stars glued together. I guess I could use White Stars and call them Gunships..... hrm. Yes, that is probably what I'd do.

I realize that I build lists to represent the show, and not so much just to stomp faces, and so balance is not necessarily geared towards my personal method of play, but you'd think some attention would be spent to rewarding people who act out the game with fleets very similar to what we see in the source material.

That is afterall why we're all here, I doubt very much that people played ACTA first, and then said hey neat so theres a DVD about this?

If I want to play a big game. I can't take the White Star Fleet. The ISA is the White Star Fleet. Give me a way to take the list, as it appears in the show, and don't penalize me for wanting to buy and field ships to match the source material for which all of this is based on.

A game that fails to represent the property it is based on, has failed. Period.

 

[Da Boss]

Can I ask if you have played at war level with the White Star - as I said it performs very well especially in squadrons - which again is how they use it in big battles - watch the groups of White Stars mobbing the Shadow ships.

The problem with trying to match the show is that there is always going to be differences - fleet sizes in the show are actually very small- in Shadow Dancing there is what 4 Sharlins? In the Episode where the Narn home defence fleet is destroyedby the Shadows it is a mere 6 (maybe 8) G'Quons and the battlefleet sent to crush Narn is about 8 Primus - their "biggest and most powerful battlecruisers". Probably due to limitations of CGI etc there are rarely mutiple ship type fleets with the exception of fighters and the AOL.

Problem is it sounds like your trying to say - I want to play with these ships so balance is not important - there has always been a problem with people taking lots of lower level ships and swarming the bigger ones - due to massive pressure MGP has changed (or looks like changing) the system to try and help that.

I understand that you feel a little frustrated but trust me - the White Stars will do fine - the fleet you suggest is a powerful one - with the majority of the ships at the top op their PL.......it should do fine depending on your opponent?

lastly if you are a little hard done by the FAP system - well wasn't Sheridan et al always fighting against the odds? :wink:

 

[Hindsight]

I think I can buy into that.

Is there going to be a Lorien admiral for the ISA then?

Lorien - ISA Admiral

I Cannot Help Him - Your opponent may not attack you directly, and must attack the player in the next game over instead, as attacking you directly would mean your immediate defeat and removal from the game. Instead you may engage a volume of your enemies force you feel you can handle, on your time table, bringing various allies onto the table as necessary, so you never have to suffer the loss of a popular character, until the game is over, and their contract with the game has expired.

Our Time Has Come - Come up with a compelling argument, make it in the form of a monologue, preferably waving around a flashlight for effect, your opponent jumps to hyperspace, each leaving behind an appropriate VP.

I think I can manage with that, but it'll still be close.

 

[Lord David the Denied]

Three White Stars for a war point is still a good deal, or you can get a White Star Gunship (model is pure arse, I know, let's have a new one, Matt!) and two White Stars. We're going back to the free upgrade split, basically, that people used to moan about.

It's high time Matt and co. gave up this obsession with the PL system and recognised that it's fallen apart. Just give us a points system and be done with it!

 

[H]

Ok, don't put words into my mouth. The Tara'lin is weak vs. a canon Sharlin, and whether its a variant or not, its a Sharlin hull so I can call it whatever I want and have it fit into a show representative list.

This thread is about the FAP breakdown. The ISA is all about the White Star Fleet, so whether I have access to the Excalibur or not, I'd have that, maybe a Sharlin or some Earth Cruisers, and just a ton of White Stars.

Thats just how the ISA rolls. 10 War points, becomes 8 after the Victory, 6 after a Sharlin and a Tara'lin, leaving me what used to be a lot more white stars, and now only leaving me with 18, losing a total of six White Stars in the split.

When I build my lists, I build towards what we see in the show, and the ISA has a fleet of White Stars, supported by a handful of capital ships. I know the Degoto was in combat a lot, so it wouldn't surprised me if even the army of light only had access to like three sharlins at any given time.

So yea, at this PL, I'd have to take Gunships instead of White Stars, as I wouldn't take any loses from the PL, and the Gunship is basically two White Stars glued together. I guess I could use White Stars and call them Gunships..... hrm. Yes, that is probably what I'd do.

I realize that I build lists to represent the show, and not so much just to stomp faces, and so balance is not necessarily geared towards my personal method of play, but you'd think some attention would be spent to rewarding people who act out the game with fleets very similar to what we see in the source material.

That is afterall why we're all here, I doubt very much that people played ACTA first, and then said hey neat so theres a DVD about this?

If I want to play a big game. I can't take the White Star Fleet. The ISA is the White Star Fleet. Give me a way to take the list, as it appears in the show, and don't penalize me for wanting to buy and field ships to match the source material for which all of this is based on.

A game that fails to represent the property it is based on, has failed. Period.

If I want to play a Skirmish level game, I can't take an all G'Quan fleet, or an all Omega fleet, nor an all avioki fleet, and I sure as hell can't take an all Sharlin fleet. EVERY single fleet has the same limitation that you can't play "canon" at a specific level. Heck the Dilgar can't play canon period as you NEVER see a dilgar warship in the show.
That aside, um, Whitestars in a war level game are fine, you talk about representing the show. 20 plus whitestars attacked 8 shadow omegas. if we make it nice and say 24, that makes 3 whitestars for every shadow omega, meaning in a war game, the breakdown would need to give you 3 raid ships per war ship, in this instance 3 whitestars for every shadow omega. and, lo, it does. . .

 

[mrambassador1]

This is hilarious, I wish someone would (no not me) go through the history of all the versions of ACTA from the begining through SFOS, Armageddon, etc right up to now listing all the changes that have been made as one faction of players say this ship or fighters or the FAP system whatever is too strong/weak for this or that race. Mongoose changes it a bit for the next book, then you get the other half saying now its too powerful.

So funny I seem to remember the original FAP system working like the proposed one (you get punished for using ships too far out of PL) but half the people complained that their Drazi or whitestar fleet was screwed. So Mongoose changed it to what it is now and we get the other half complaining that they get swarmed and no fleet can beat the unwashed hordes of sunhawks or whitestars taking them apart. So Mongoose proposes changes to make it more like it was originally and we get the first half complaining again.

Personaly I think the new proposed (or is it the old) system works fine, but the current (swarm happy) system isn't as bad as some make out. I find smart players find ways around their opponents fleets whatever the system. Currently we seem to counter the swarm factor by going a bit swarmy ourselves using many small escorts around a small core of large ships for long range firepower. With the new changes we will prob go back to smaller groups of large ships. I can see both sides of the argument and they both make sense (you both make valid points) but I'm afraid that pleasing one of you a bit more is just going to piss off the other one more. Mongoose has found a pretty good equilibrium between the two of you (schools of thought that is, not individual posters) and most of the changes they make are reasonable in themselves and I find they work whichever way they lean, you just have to make minor adjustments to your fleet selection.

 

[Leadman]

Isn’t the problem that the new FAP system is trying to address is the fact that most larger ships aren’t worth their equivalent in smaller ships? Trying to fix the problem by adjusting the FAP system doesn’t work if the result makes horde fleets unviable. Changing to a point based FAP may lessen the problem as well as fix other problems, but the fact of the matter is that Mongoose isn’t going to move to a point system and the real problem of the value of large ships hasn’t been adequately addressed by the new FAP system.

Would it be possible to increase the value of larger ships without just adding fire power (though in some cases that’s what’s needed)? One possible solution would be to change how capital ships deal with critical hit special affects. For example, allow Raid PL ships to repair critical hit special affects on a score of 8 instead of 9. Allow Battle PL ships to repair a single special affect in the end phase of the turn it occurred in on a score of 10, and to repair up to 2 special affects or hull damage in the following end phase on a score of 8. War PL ships could repair a single special affect in the end phase of the turn it occurred in on a score of 9, and to repair up to 3 special affects or hull damage in the following end phase on a score of 8. Armageddon PL ships could have the same abilities as War PL ships plus the ability to repair vital system special affects on a score of 9. All of the ships would lose these added capabilities once the ship becomes crippled or skeleton crewed.

I don’t know if this idea is the right way to go, but certainly this group can come up with something that would address the issue without crippling horde fleets.

Dannie

 

[Silvereye]

Can I ask if you have played at war level with the White Star - as I said it performs very well especially in squadrons - which again is how they use it in big battles - watch the groups of White Stars mobbing the Shadow ships.

And watch White Stars dropping from their squadrons in bits as an enemy capital ship brings its guns on target.

In the show after the big battles, there was a lot of White Star wreckage floating about.

White Stars were dropping like flies.

=(

So the Whitestar has become flea instead of a hornet :evil:

I'd expect Hyperions, Sullusts and most other Raid level ships to drop like flies in the kind of environment that you can get for 10 War (certainly big enough to warrant a Victory or Drakh mothership).

Certainly I'd not expect any fleet to come out unscathed.

 

[Delthos]

That is afterall why we're all here, I doubt very much that people played ACTA first, and then said hey neat so theres a DVD about this?

It wasn't exactly like that for me, but it was darn close. For me I was looking for a good set of rules to use for Star Wars. I got a recommendation for A Call to Arms, so I purchased the 1st edition revised boxed set. I read through the books, played some games, picked up all the books for the game, and said "Damn this is a cool game and setting, I'm definitely gonna have to check out the series." That led me down the road to being a huge B5 fan, having almost all the DVD's except Rangers and Lost Tales, having all the A Call to Arms books, and 7 large fleets (with more to come when cash flow is better and IWM gets producing). All because I was looking for a set of rules to play Star Wars Starship Battles with! Prior to the game I had seen a grand total of one and a half episodes of B5.

 

[stepan.razin]

Isn’t the problem that the new FAP system is trying to address is the fact that most larger ships aren’t worth their equivalent in smaller ships? Trying to fix the problem by adjusting the FAP system doesn’t work if the result makes horde fleets unviable. Changing to a point based FAP may lessen the problem as well as fix other problems, but the fact of the matter is that Mongoose isn’t going to move to a point system and the real problem of the value of large ships hasn’t been adequately addressed by the new FAP system.

Would it be possible to increase the value of larger ships without just adding fire power (though in some cases that’s what’s needed)? One possible solution would be to change how capital ships deal with critical hit special affects. For example, allow Raid PL ships to repair critical hit special affects on a score of 8 instead of 9. Allow Battle PL ships to repair a single special affect in the end phase of the turn it occurred in on a score of 10, and to repair up to 2 special affects or hull damage in the following end phase on a score of 8. War PL ships could repair a single special affect in the end phase of the turn it occurred in on a score of 9, and to repair up to 3 special affects or hull damage in the following end phase on a score of 8. Armageddon PL ships could have the same abilities as War PL ships plus the ability to repair vital system special affects on a score of 9. All of the ships would lose these added capabilities once the ship becomes crippled or skeleton crewed.

I don’t know if this idea is the right way to go, but certainly this group can come up with something that would address the issue without crippling horde fleets.

Dannie

That would definately fix the game better then any number of band aid fixes that I see proposed here. The FAP system will never be completely fair as long as 2 ships != 1 ship (with 2 ships coming from a 1 PL lower then the 1 ship)., and the critical system is the way it is..

By the way, under the current FAP system 1 Macu equals 4 Raiders plus a macu itself, not just 4 raiders. So, just try to imagine how much extra firepower a Drakh player will get under the new FAP system....

 

[l33tpenguin]

By the way, under the current FAP system 1 Macu equals 4 Raiders plus a macu itself, not just 4 raiders. So, just try to imagine how much extra firepower a Drakh player will get under the new FAP system....

I never liked fighters and ships coming with their carriers. It always seemed like a broken concept to me, especially with huge hangers. Any FAP change means that all Drahk ships with hangers really have to be rebalanced.

I personally think carriers need to be rebalanced and have their fighters removed, available for purchase separately, possibly with the ability to make their fighters slightly cheaper for purchase (like a Poseidon making furies get an extra flight per wing until the carrier is filled).

 

[stepan.razin]

I'd expect Hyperions, Sullusts and most other Raid level ships to drop like flies in the kind of environment that you can get for 10 War (certainly big enough to warrant a Victory or Drakh mothership).

Certainly I'd not expect any fleet to come out unscathed.

It was an overall bloodbath. But that Drakh fleet pretty much had an extra 1 war fap for free.. Actually, it was 27 Light Raiders chasing around 6 White stars.. Nothing else would realy shoot into that swarm. Cool site to see....

 

[Pawnographer]

1) Ma'cu Class Carrier: Well, I am a Drakh player with 5 Ma'cu Carriers & an Amu Mothership that has played against the Narn & ISA amongst others. I understand why stephan.razin doesn't like the idea of the Drakh getting an "unfair" advantage in initiative sinks under the new FAP system but I disagree for the following reasons: (i) each race/fleet should have its own strengths & weaknesses and the Drakh certainly have their weaknesses (no interceptors; no anti-fighter; no fighters; low hull values - mostly 4 & 5's; short-range secondary guns; no e-mines; etc.) as well as the their strengths (GEG; good beams - not quite as good as the ISA but fairly good, and cost efficient carriers with huge hangars; (ii) the Ma'cu by itself is NOT a good Battle level ship (hull 4, 2 AD beams forward arc only; slow; lumbering); and (iii) the Raiders (heavy or light) are not a great Skirmish level choice by themselves (short-range beams; no-anti-fighter; only 2 AD) - its the combination together that makes the Ma'cu a good choice. Take away a hangar & the Macu becomes a poor choice compared to the Amu Mothership (with an equal number of hangars, the Mothership, IMHO, becomes a better choice; with the Ma'cu's having more hangars but only carrying raiders versus the Mothership's greater firepower and ship choices - there are interesting strategic choices).

I agree as a Drakh player that this forum in the past seemed to unfairly disrespect the Ma'cu.

One gripe - IMHO, the Light Raider is clearly superior to the Heavy Raider - it is faster, more maneuverable and witha Dodge of 4+ rather than 5+, MUCH more survivable. To make the Heavy Raider a reasonable alternative without too many chhanges, the Heavy Raider should be a Hull 5 rather than Hull 4 like the Light Raider.

2) Leadman's Comments: I agree completely. We shouldn't have artificial limitations that simply restrict player's choices but come up with balanced reasons why players might opt for larger ships. Allowing capital ships a better chance to repair would help. Possibly giving larger ships better crews (say Battle & War level get Superior Crews and Armageddon level ships getting Elite crews might be another tweak - not my idea but discussed among the San Jose California players). I tried a new Crit Table which gave bigger ships a better chance to crit a smaller ship and made it more difficult but not impossible for a small ship to crit a bigger ship but it seemed too unbalanced the one time I tried it. Some people have suggested making crits less likely similar to Victory at Sea (my understanding - must roll 4+ to "confirm" the crit cutting down the likelihood of crits substantially. Of course, all those Narn Sho'kov torpedo cutters & Drazi Darkhawks will have a harder time crit fishing but nothing is perfect.

The game could use less dice rolling to speed it up - so Burger's Beam rolls and some alternative to CBD that reduces damages such as increasing the chance of a bulkhead while cutting down the # of AD are good ideas very much worth investigation.

Primary: Drakh
Secondary: Centauri
Other: League/new Brakiri Fleet that has not seen play; Vorlons - very little play - some opponents seem to feel they are too good but the Vorlons have been challenged by the Vree - we will see.