New E-Mines as defined by S+P

[H]

ok, it's early days, I have read the proposal, and, um, err, right then.

I would be happy with the one shot SAP triple damage IF they could crit, that is scary, for one round in a game. not being able to crit though, I see them as an annoyance, nothing more really. But then I haven't got a clue how many dice they now come with.
I can see that a few E-Mine armed ships could arguably take out a group of skirmishers for example. I Just dunno really.

thoughts people? results from playtesting?

 

[Burger]

I don't see how they can possibly be Triple Damage, if they can't cause crits! Doesn't really make sense to me.

 

[Greg Smith]

Anyone fighting e-mine ships has to keep his ships more than 6" apart.

The ships carrying E-mine are pretty much the same as they are now, so you don't get e-mines on anything lower than battle (except the Dag'kar). Pulsar mines don't change.

When playing Narn it becomes a bit of a gamble - do I fire my mines now, or will there be a better opportunity later?

How many AD? Well since things change rapidly, I won't say. But less than 1e.

 

[H]

less?! for one shot? again, IF they crited, this would be a cool thing.

let me explain, lets assume that the G'Quans e-mines get halved, it now has 8. it shoots at it's designated point in space, it contains a primus, and 2 Vorchans. so *AP dice against the primus, does, say 3 hits thats 9-9. a mere scratch. ok, to the Vorchans with hull 5, It hits with 4 for a 12-12, admitedly, thats respectable against 2 skirmish ships.

It's got a place against Skirmishers I guess, but against tougher targets, It's not going to do much, or was this the aim? If so, then OK, give the G'Quan another beam dice, and the Dag'Kar hull 5, and call it quits ;-)

 

[Greg Smith]

If a game lasts 6 turns, the current G'quan only gets to fire its mines 3 times, probably doing less damage in total.

 

[H]

yes, but current e-mines suck (standard ones anyway)

It's a step in the right direction, just not convinced it's as great as it could be. It does mean it's wasted on fighters, probably making the Narn a lot more susceptible to fighters now

 

[Greg Smith]

Exactly. Now they don't suck.

But they are just part of the Narn's armament and part of the way in which the Narn get tweaked.

 

[H]

fair enough. Question. Varient e-mines.... yes/no.

 

[Greg Smith]

No.

 

[H]

ah, right then.

can I propose a motion for Ionic mines to be kept? I see that slow loading and Ship Busters really don't have a place as such.
I suppose in the one shot arena, they wouldn't be used, but for the slow loading ships?

 

[Kosh127]

you can't have it all. As it sounds its going to be very deadly with the change. As per S&P the war ship and the raid ship get this new killer and get to fire it more than once. The game must be balanced after all.

 

[angelus2000]

TBH I think trying to figure out the new Emines is pretty much worthless at this point, without the AD, range, arcm and number of mounts that comprise the rest of the stats.

If its SAP, TD but cannot crit, I suspect the number of AD per Emine is going to fairly high per weapons system, probably suprising so. There seemed to be a fairly good indication thats its going to be a one-use weapon. It will most likely one-shot kill any patrol choice guaranteed, and all but the toughest skirmish level ships will be crippled with even an average amount of hits. Raids are iffy depending on hull, and I suspect it will put a dent in most battle level hulls. More importantly, I think there amount of launchers per ship is going to be reduced from 2 to 1 in most cases, with the maybe exception of the Dagkar

If it can crit, I'd tend to think the amount of AD per systme is going to be much lower. Less pure blast effects, which means more skirmish will survive, and battle pls will be hardly fazed at all. But toss in crits, and TD ones at that, means much more of a variable overall effect. If this is done though, I'd expect the number of lanuchers to reamin the same, but with lower AD.



TBH, I'd prefer them to remain Critless. Crit fishing is not a Narn specialty, so I'd prefer the bigger boom to the crits. Narns rely a lot on their secondary arrays to get the job done, unlike most races, as their primary armaments tend to be weaker or shorter ranged than the other races, emines excluded. inflicting some heavy damage at the outset and polishing up with light pulse cannons and twin arrays fits much more into Narn character than praying to the dice gods for crits like bonehead and isa players do already.

So i basically ignored the first part of the advie I gave. Shoot me!

 

[Ripple]

Angelus, your ignoring above posts (and statements made elsewhere)... the AD are going down.

So...

One shot
Less AD
No variants (and the no SA was a narn specialty, they better get something huge to make up for that loss)
Short charge? (for the couple of ships that may have reloadable ones?)

Gain triple damage

Feels like a net loss to me on damage/crew inflicted over the game (short charge if available may help for the Dag). Certainly a huge loss with the ionics, one of two major uses of the system, is now gone.

Seems we wanted to avoid the issue of fighter clearance, but in finding a solution we threw the baby out with the bathwater again. Make them too precious to use...but not so big they can actually finish anything but the little stuff. Why exactly did they think shooting these at Shadows mattered? They can't crit, and a few dice of triple is no threat to a ship of significant pl. Shrug...just don't understand, maybe it will all come clear later...but the G'Quan better get something pretty nifty cause it just lost its only real place in a fleet.

Ripple

 

[Triggy]

But 9/9 against a Primus (as an example of a "big" ship) is a big deal! 20% of a ship gone in one shot from one weapon system... this is the tradeoff though, they don't quite do that much damage but if you can get multiple ships in the blast area then they can be awesome (think against the Abbai/Drazi swarm). They still damage fighters fairly well but it may seem like a waste vs them if that's what you choose to fire at.

 

[Jhary]

Maybe they change it like the beams for an 4+ or 5+ automatic hit even against Hull 6 (What i think make sense) because you don´t aim exact at the enemy for an weak spot. you aim near to.
I think of the E-mines ever like waterbombs against an Submarine there you don´t need to hit exact close explosion is good enought.

 

[cordas]

Maybe they change it like the beams for an 4+ or 5+ automatic hit even against Hull 6 (What i think make sense) because you don´t aim exact at the enemy for an weak spot. you aim near to.
I think of the E-mines ever like waterbombs against an Submarine there you don´t need to hit exact close explosion is good enought.

Hmmm throwing waterbombs against subs..... :shock: Maybe depth charges, but I don't see ballons full of watrer doing anything to subs :lol:

I like the idea of a static target value where they always hit on a 4+ or 5+, chuck in a fairly large number of dice (maybe decreasing at range, say 9 within 1 inch, 6 within 3 inches, 3 within 6 inches) and TD but no crits. I don't think that would be too difficult for gamers to understand (as long as CTA2 keeps center point) and would give Emines a very nasty feel, and give the placing of them a larger tactical value.

 

[katadder]

OK think of it like this - you get a JP bomb that doesnt scatter, has 30" range and AP but cant do crits.
on the slow loading ones thats every other turn you get to do that.
also I took a previous version of the dag'kar to prove it was broken (been toned down a little since) in a 5 dag'kar fleet and they killed 3 whitestars in the 1st turn alone and it was over by turn 3. same sort of thing happens versus teshlans.
hull 4 isnt a major problem any more either due to alot of long range fire being beams and they hit hull 4 same as hull 6.

 

[Ripple]

Did want to amend my previous statement slightly...I forgot the gain of AP, which does help a wee bit.

I agree that against a swarm these would indeed be pretty cool. But if the number of AD is falling, I am more luck dependent and I am really not gaining as much as it seems in the TD trait as it is already partially balanced by the loss of AD. Add in the 'one shot' nature of the system (and I always get at LEAST two shots from my launchers now) and its a net loss on damage.

Add in being able to 'de-CAF' a fleet with ionics being lost and this is without question a net 'screw you' to the Narn being sold as an upgrade. If this was being sold as part of a re-jig package, more beam dice, less weak trait, better arc on the lasers...something I could buy in as maybe more fluffy...but as a stand alone statement...nope. Nine damage crew to a tertius vs 'de-CAFing' two or three times and some damage to boot...not seeing any upside for the Narn.

Ripple

 

[Tzarevitch]

Anyone know (and can say) whether the G'Quan gets more beam? If its E-Mines loose dice and become 1-shot without upping the beam by a die or 2, it looses firepower and versatility and it was already low on ranged firepower. I am aware of the beam changes, but 3 dice? And this is the ship that took out a primus and helped take out a shadow ship with its beams?

The other E-Mine ships are fine on their own, even with the changes. The Dag'Kar actually gets better. It becomes very useful now because it can re-load and actually inflict real damage and it is not as flimsy due to the beam changes.

Tzarevitch

 

[katadder]

Add in being able to 'de-CAF' a fleet with ionics being lost and this is without question a net 'screw you' to the Narn being sold as an upgrade. If this was being sold as part of a re-jig package, more beam dice, less weak trait, better arc on the lasers...something I could buy in as maybe more fluffy...but as a stand alone statement...nope. Nine damage crew to a tertius vs 'de-CAFing' two or three times and some damage to boot...not seeing any upside for the Narn.

Ripple

well the overall package sounds a bit like what you wanted in all those options apart from laser arcs (still boresight).

the Narns are not as bad off as you think. add in the fact that e-mines are basically far better than ship breakers now - TD compared to DD, range 30" compared to 10", still get the burst compare to no burst. admitedly not SAP but with the burst ignoring pretty much most defenses (stealth, dodge, interceptors) this is a net gain, more for ships with slow loading anyway.
in the show once the G'quans had released their e-mines they didnt have them for the rest of a fight. its the way of it here. IIRC only 2 ships have one shots e-mines, the rest have the slow loading version.