Natural DR and Finesse Attack and To The Hilt

[slaughterj]

The finesse section does not address natural DR, but I do wonder whether one can finesse attack around natural DR. Thoughts? I seem to recall in the Conan RPG a mention that natural DR is treated as armor though. If anyone can point out a cite, I would appreciate it.

To The Hilt says it must be against an unarmored foe, but again, does not directly address natural DR. The cite I mentioned above might be useful here as well. Also, there was a previous thread (Jan 06) on this, but didn't seem to achieve resolution. Any new thoughts on whether this works on creatures with DR? It seems one should be able use To The Hilt on a horse, but horses have DR 2, but I can see the flip side argument that one shouldn't be able to use it on a stone golem maybe.

 

[Yogah of Yag]

If nat DR is like hide, scales, fur, etc. I don't know how exactly one "gets around it." I wouldn't allow finessing nat DR.

 

[slaughterj]

If nat DR is like hide, scales, fur, etc. I don't know how exactly one "gets around it." I wouldn't allow finessing nat DR.

I know what you mean, but there are thicker and thinner sections on most things, e.g., you battle the giant scorpion and stick your blade between sections of carapace, or the elephant's joints where the skin is thinner, etc.

 

[Yogah of Yag]

Hey, that's great! I never thought about that. 8)
But with, say, fur....same problem. Do the PCs look for the "thin fur?" :lol:

 

[Oly]

But with, say, fur....same problem. Do the PCs look for the "thin fur?" :lol:

I know my cat had distinctly less furry parts of his body, that said I think that was caused more by him licking his belly all the time, stupid cat....

I think looking for furless or fur thin areas is a fine explanation, joints and the like perhaps.

 

[slaughterj]

Without finding a statement to the contrary or the cite I mentioned above, I think Finesse combat can be used against natural DR and will run it that way.

As for To The Hilt, I'm still contemplating, but I can see it being fun for a PC to jam a dagger into a lumbering creature (all of which probably have DR) and try to run away while it plodded after them, dying!

 

[quigs]

I believe in the Conan RPG AE it states that natural DR behaves exactly like armour in regards to finesse attacks and AP attacks.

Finesse attacks assume you strike a vulnerable spot on the creature. Maybe in the case of furry animals, its softer underbelly, genitals, or smack it in the face/mouth/nose/eye/ear, whatever you like. Be creative!

 

[slaughterj]

I believe in the Conan RPG AE it states that natural DR behaves exactly like armour in regards to finesse attacks and AP attacks.

I recall reading something to that effect, though not quite so clearly stated (e.g., everything but the "in regards to..."). I only have the PG handy, I'll check the AE at home this evening.

I'm still wondering about To The Hilt though.

 

[argo]

I don't have my books at work so I can't provide the cite but I am quite sure that AE ruels that Natural DR works in all respects as Armour DR. This was added to AE after some discussion on this board on the topic after the release of the first edition, I was one of the proponents of treating natural armor as armour.

As for the "thick hide/fur" natural armor, the animal will still have vulneurable spots: throat/jugular, underbelly, groin, tendons, etc. Watch a nature documentary to see how some big carnovores try to take down big herbavores and you will get plenty of ideas.

Regarding "To the Hilt". By RAW you can't use it on an animal with natural DR. However, I would say a reasonable House Rule would be that if you finesse past the armour then you can treat the subject as unarmoured for the purpose of abilities such as To the Hilt, etc. Of course you would want to let it work that way against manufactured Armour as well (stick a knife in his back! ).

Later.

 

[slaughterj]

I don't have my books at work so I can't provide the cite but I am quite sure that AE ruels that Natural DR works in all respects as Armour DR. This was added to AE after some discussion on this board on the topic after the release of the first edition, I was one of the proponents of treating natural armor as armour.

As for the "thick hide/fur" natural armor, the animal will still have vulneurable spots: throat/jugular, underbelly, groin, tendons, etc. Watch a nature documentary to see how some big carnovores try to take down big herbavores and you will get plenty of ideas.

Regarding "To the Hilt". By RAW you can't use it on an animal with natural DR. However, I would say a reasonable House Rule would be that if you finesse past the armour then you can treat the subject as unarmoured for the purpose of abilities such as To the Hilt, etc. Of course you would want to let it work that way against manufactured Armour as well (stick a knife in his back! ).

Later.

I think you are correct on all this, and will work up a house rule for To The Hilt as a result. I'm not sure finessing should be necessary for the house rule though, since the effect being done here is "Power Attacking" deeply into the creature and leaving the blade.

 

[argo]

Well, the point of To the Hilt isn't that you breach the armour. Its that you drive your weapon so deeply that it becomes stuck in the opponent. The logic of the "unarmoured opponent" requirement is that the armour would get in the way of this and you can't get in that last critical 2 inches of blade.

Thus my suggestion that a finess attack might be allowed to work because you are sticking your weapon in a spot with nothing to get in the way. I'm really just thinking out loud here, I haven't playtested it or anything.

Later.

 

[slaughterj]

Oh I understand your rationale for the finesse attack, and it makes sense for the reasons stated, but I was just pointing out that To The Hilt has the Power Attack prereq and seems more about jamming it deep than strategically, so it's hard to figure out the best way to address this with a House Rule.

 

[Majestic7]

I'm using a houserule stating that finesse attacks only halve natural DR if succesfull, instead of going completely through it. As a plus side it makes big, easy to hit monsters a bit harder to kill.

 

[Lord Jolly the Scribe]

Even turtles and armadillos have soft spots. To Th Hilt is like sticking a sharp stick in someone's eye who's wearing full tact armor and ballistic mask and heltmet. Everyone has a weakness somewhere, that's why they need you to use weapon finesse.

And with some of the Conan nasties, To The Hilt is kinda helpful.

 

[Ichabod]

I'm using a houserule stating that finesse attacks only halve natural DR if succesfull, instead of going completely through it. As a plus side it makes big, easy to hit monsters a bit harder to kill.

Do you find finesse fighting powerful enough to weaken it?

 

[Majestic7]

Do you find finesse fighting powerful enough to weaken it?

I think it is bit of an anticlimax, yes, if a finesse strike kills a big monsie with one good hit. However, the real reason for this is "realism", not gamistic point of view on he gaming balance. I don't give a damn about game balance, if things just make sense. Since it haven't been clearly said that finesse works against natural armor just as against normal armor, I've houseruled that it can halve natural DR at best. I think it makes sense and my players have agreed too. You can think of critical hits as portraying hits to the eyes and such unprotected parts of the body.

 

[slaughterj]

And with some of the Conan nasties, To The Hilt is kinda helpful.

That's highly unlikely currently, as most nasties probably have DR, and therefore under the rules, cannot be subject to To The Hilt.

 

[Krushnak]

the way i always read the rules was like this.

natural dr is treated exactly like dr from armour for the purposes of finesse and ap.

for to the hilt the requirement is that the person be unarmoured, meaning they arent wearing any manufactured armour. natural dr doesnt count for this so high lvl barbarians and beasts are still vulnerable to getting a poignard to the gut.

 

[Sutek]

The finesse section does not address natural DR, but I do wonder whether one can finesse attack around natural DR. Thoughts? I seem to recall in the Conan RPG a mention that natural DR is treated as armor though. If anyone can point out a cite, I would appreciate it.

To The Hilt says it must be against an unarmored foe, but again, does not directly address natural DR. The cite I mentioned above might be useful here as well. Also, there was a previous thread (Jan 06) on this, but didn't seem to achieve resolution. Any new thoughts on whether this works on creatures with DR? It seems one should be able use To The Hilt on a horse, but horses have DR 2, but I can see the flip side argument that one shouldn't be able to use it on a stone golem maybe.

Finesse attacks are for getting around armor.

To The Hilt is to be used against unarmored foes.

Finesse attacks work against Natural DR the same as manufactured DR.

To The Hilt does not work against Natural Armor because they are never un-armored.

 

[slaughterj]

The finesse section does not address natural DR, but I do wonder whether one can finesse attack around natural DR. Thoughts? I seem to recall in the Conan RPG a mention that natural DR is treated as armor though. If anyone can point out a cite, I would appreciate it.

To The Hilt says it must be against an unarmored foe, but again, does not directly address natural DR. The cite I mentioned above might be useful here as well. Also, there was a previous thread (Jan 06) on this, but didn't seem to achieve resolution. Any new thoughts on whether this works on creatures with DR? It seems one should be able use To The Hilt on a horse, but horses have DR 2, but I can see the flip side argument that one shouldn't be able to use it on a stone golem maybe.

Finesse attacks are for getting around armor.

To The Hilt is to be used against unarmored foes.

Finesse attacks work against Natural DR the same as manufactured DR.

To The Hilt does not work against Natural Armor because they are never un-armored.

Exactly, I know this. Try reading the whole thread next time, and see that my post was from months ago and already answered.