missile bay on a 70 ton ship

PsiTraveller

Cosmic Mongoose
1st edition High Guard (pg 97) has a 70 ton bomber ship with a small missile bay on it and a firmpoint with a sandcaster.

The small missile bay is 31 tons (not 50) with only 4 reloads. In 2nd edition, with the space savings on Power Plants and M-Drives I think I will be able to put in a full bridge and a couple of staterooms and maybe some cargo space to store extra missiles, reloading would still need to be done, but can you put a missile bay into a 70 ton ship in 2nd edition? Looking at the rules it may be the answer is no, at best a 70 ton ship has 2 firmpoints that can be converted into a missile barbette that holds 8 missiles.

And here is a question. If you had four bomber ships launch 4 salvos at a single defending ship. How many times in the Actions Step can the defending ship attempt to remove missiles from a salvo? They can deal with a single salvo once in a round, but can they defend against more than 1 salvo per round?
 
To my understanding of the rules we can do the following:

1. the missile JAM can be used once per turn for a salvo, but we need a sensors operator for salvo. We can do this each turn the missiles are on the fly
2. the point defence can be utilized once per operator (being a person or fire controls software) per salvo (we need someone to confirm this as the text in the PD section are not 100% clear to me). So for 4 salvos we need 4 turrets with PD weapons which have at least one gun reserved for PD. Each turret can attempt (considering there is someone to fire it) once at one salvo. It kind of make sense, since 4 salvos can overwhelm a ship with little PD - they just don't have the time to focus on all vectors.
 
PsiTraveller said:
1st edition High Guard (pg 97) has a 70 ton bomber ship with a small missile bay on it and a firmpoint with a sandcaster.

The small missile bay is 31 tons (not 50) with only 4 reloads. In 2nd edition, with the space savings on Power Plants and M-Drives I think I will be able to put in a full bridge and a couple of staterooms and maybe some cargo space to store extra missiles, reloading would still need to be done, but can you put a missile bay into a 70 ton ship in 2nd edition? Looking at the rules it may be the answer is no, at best a 70 ton ship has 2 firmpoints that can be converted into a missile barbette that holds 8 missiles.

And here is a question. If you had four bomber ships launch 4 salvos at a single defending ship. How many times in the Actions Step can the defending ship attempt to remove missiles from a salvo? They can deal with a single salvo once in a round, but can they defend against more than 1 salvo per round?

The size of the missile bay was scaled down due to the TL bonus for 'older' weaponry.

I would say missiles launched from a flight of ships (such as the four bombers) should count as a single salvo.

arcador said:
To my understanding of the rules we can do the following:

1. the missile JAM can be used once per turn for a salvo, but we need a sensors operator for salvo. We can do this each turn the missiles are on the fly
2. the point defence can be utilized once per operator (being a person or fire controls software) per salvo (we need someone to confirm this as the text in the PD section are not 100% clear to me). So for 4 salvos we need 4 turrets with PD weapons which have at least one gun reserved for PD. Each turret can attempt (considering there is someone to fire it) once at one salvo. It kind of make sense, since 4 salvos can overwhelm a ship with little PD - they just don't have the time to focus on all vectors.

In the example above your sensor operator should be able to make one attempt per round to jam missiles. Point defense would have one shotper turret at a salvo, or could engage multiple salvo's. In any case each turret only gets one shop, period.

And overwhelming a ship with missiles is the idea. I would think you would want as large of a salvo as you can get to enhance the bonus damage once it (hopefully) hits. But I have yet to play out a scenario like this. Splitting your missiles up into separate salvo's potentially allows your opponent to make more jamming rolls. Though now that it requires a sensor operator, I guess that will have to be more clearly delineated on ship-sheets and descriptions....
 
phavoc: has that scaling due to higher tech been kept in 2nd edition? I see it in 1st edition Highguard on pg 53. It would really free up space in 2nd edition.

And why would the missiles count as a single salvo? They are from four different ships. They could be coming in from four different directions.
If they do count as 1 salvo, then bonus! 48 missiles launched at long range ,1 EW attempt at them, say 6 destroyed, PD the following round, say 4 turrets killing 6 each, so 18 missiles left giving +18 to the attack roll and damage multiplier after armour reduction. At 8 armour and 6 damage getting through (assuming average roll of 14 for 4D) that is 6 points times 17 for 102 Hull damage in a salvo. I will gladly take that.

I realized I had been making the same assumption about EW all along because my practice sessions were always one on one ship to ship combat when I statted up and tried out ship designs. So each round I was launching a single salvo against a single ship. But reading the description of EW Countermeasures again got me thinking.

"Electronic Warfare: A Traveller performing sensor operator duties on a spacecraft can use the Electronic Warfare action to destroy or misdirect incoming missiles before they impact his vessel or another ship within Close range.

The sensor operator must succeed at a Difficult (10+) Electronics (sensors) check (1 round, INT) in order to destroy or render inert incoming missiles within a single salvo. The Effect of this check will immediately remove that many missiles from the salvo.

Electronic Warfare may be performed upon a salvo multiple times over several rounds, with the effects being cumulative. However, a salvo may only be subjected to Electronic Warfare once per round, no
matter how many sensor operators are available." pg 162

The EW check takes a round to do, so only one salvo can be targeted by a single operator. There can be more than one operator as per the last paragraph, but the second operator can only target different salvos. So the next question is, how many operators can be used per ship? How many consoles can be fit into the bridge? I do not see a number given anywhere, and it is an important number to know. If you only have a single EW operator on a ship then four bombers can swamp the defences if launched at long range. I would expect military ships to have as many Operators as they can get to go after individual salvos.

Example. 1 EW operator
Salvos launched at Long range from 4 different ships. 1 round flight time, so only one Reaction step for EW. Operator targets salvo 1
At that point Point Defence could be taken against each salvo. A gunner could attack a single salvo and get a +1 or +2 to the attack roll. So lets say there are 4 turrets left and each shoots at a different salvo to reduce the attack bonus. The first salvo would almost be wiped out but the rest would still have several missiles left in it. Assuming 6 missiles wiped out per turret that leaves 3 salvos left with 6 missiles in each salvo. That is a +6 bonus towards the attack roll and subsequent damage multiplier. Effect would be 5 so damage would be 30 points per salvo times 3 salvos or 90 damage. That is 12 points less than the 48 missile salvo, so a win for the defence, even at only 1 turret per salvo. If you have a bigger ship with more turrets you might be destroying more missiles in the salvo and getting smaller multipliers.

Another question. Can a ship NOT being targeted by a salvo use its EW defence to target a salvo heading for another ship? This would allow 2 EW rolls against a single salvo, reducing the number of effective missiles. It would allow for the creation of the Jammer ship, heavily outfitted with Operator consoles and countermeasure suites and massive broadcast capability to fit into a line of battle and act as the safety net targeted and spoofing as many salvos per round that it can.











My question is how many jamming attempts can be made by a sensor operator in a combat round? Is it once per salvo, so if there are four salvos the operator can make four different rolls? Or is it once per round and the operator picks which salvo he is working against? (which is likely to be the salvo with the most missiles to reduce the attack bonus for the missiles when they do attack.)
 
psiTraveller said:
And here is a question. If you had four bomber ships launch 4 salvos at a single defending ship. How many times in the Actions Step can the defending ship attempt to remove missiles from a salvo? They can deal with a single salvo once in a round, but can they defend against more than 1 salvo per round?
As far as I understand it a single sensor operator can perform as many actions as required, so the defending ship can EW each salvoe every round.

Note that the rules does not limit the EW action, unlike the PD action.
 
Technically spacecraft of less than 100 t has no hardpoints, so cannot mount bays in the new edition.

It has firmpoints instead that can mount single turret weapons, or a barbette on two firmpoints.
 
AnotherDilbert: well here is where a clarification of the rules would be good. As I posted above "The sensor operator must succeed at a Difficult (10+) Electronics (sensors) check (1 round, INT) in order to destroy or render inert incoming missiles within a single salvo. The Effect of this check will immediately remove that many missiles from the salvo."

So the EW check takes 1 round and destroys or renders inert incoming missiles within a single salvo. It does not say that more than a single salvo can be affected. That is my whole question. How many checks can an operator make in a round? If it is more than one check, add a line of text that says that. If it is only one check, and one salvo, make that perfectly clear, because if it is a single check it offers a tactical doctrine to fire several missile salvos at the same ship in order to swamp the EW and overwhelm the PD of the ship.

One line of text would settle the question. For example the Point Defence Gunner can "A gunner may only attempt Point Defence against once every round." So if there are four salvos inbound, you better have 4 free Gunners to PD them, otherwise the salvo gets through. And that PD line makes me think that EW is/should be one salvo a round, but that's just me.


As for the no bays in sub 100 ton ships, again, just looking for a clarification. 1st edition has several designs for missile pod ships and defence pods that do not seem to fit 2nd edition rules, so I wanted to see if they are changing things so much you cannot translate over all the old ships from 1st edition.
 
PsiTraveller said:
AnotherDilbert: well here is where a clarification of the rules would be good.
Completely agree. I asked for the same in the thread "Actions in the Action Step" thread in the Core Book forum.

As for no bays in small craft the rules are clear: bays require hardpoints and small craft does not have hardpoints.
 
PsiTraveller said:
phavoc: has that scaling due to higher tech been kept in 2nd edition? I see it in 1st edition Highguard on pg 53. It would really free up space in 2nd edition.

And why would the missiles count as a single salvo? They are from four different ships. They could be coming in from four different directions.
If they do count as 1 salvo, then bonus! 48 missiles launched at long range ,1 EW attempt at them, say 6 destroyed, PD the following round, say 4 turrets killing 6 each, so 18 missiles left giving +18 to the attack roll and damage multiplier after armour reduction. At 8 armour and 6 damage getting through (assuming average roll of 14 for 4D) that is 6 points times 17 for 102 Hull damage in a salvo. I will gladly take that.

That is a question that isn't answered in the book. I, personally, would allow a four-ship flight of bombers to act and fire together. It makes too much sense to group flights and squadrons together so they fire as one. Otherwise the defender would get so many free attempts to attack individual salvo's it would be ridiculous. And stupid. And I hate stupid.

PsiTraveller said:
My question is how many jamming attempts can be made by a sensor operator in a combat round? Is it once per salvo, so if there are four salvos the operator can make four different rolls? Or is it once per round and the operator picks which salvo he is working against? (which is likely to be the salvo with the most missiles to reduce the attack bonus for the missiles when they do attack.)

I believe it's once per salvo. Don't have my books in front of me but if I recall correctly that was what was originally listed.
 
One option could be to speed up from 1 combat round to 1 minute for a -1DM. This would allow a Sensor Operator to target 6 salvos per combat round at a -1 DM per roll.
This is by the rules on going faster or slower on page 60.

Oddly enough space combat rounds are not listed. :)
 
And to get around the bay issue for the Bomber, all I will need to do is make the ship 100 tons, get 1 hardpoint, put in a small bay for 50 tons and get 12 salvos not 4, so I triple the capacity for the same price.

I will post my build when I finish it.
 
A few points:

a) As per Core rules, each ship is launching it's own Salvo.

b) As per upcoming High-Guard rules, we dont know yet. However, previous high-guard treated flights, not single bombers, as creating their own barrages (obviously we'll need rules on combining flights and so on).

c) Decreasing size by increasing Tech Level does still exist, and at the exact same ratio. -10% per TL increase up to a max of +3/-30%

d) Also keep in mind that Bays can no longer be mounted on small-craft. The Largest is a Barbette equivalent on a firmpoint :)
 
Nerhesi: Where is the tonnage shirinking for increased tech? All I found was the change in spinal size based on tech level. Or are you referring to the 5% tonnage decrease for tech advantage?
 
TL 12 Design
Hull 100 tons Streamlined ; 40 Hull Points: 6 Million Credits
Armour 4 points Crystal Iron: 5 tons, 1 MCr
Thrust 6 : 6 Tons 12 MCr
Power Plant TL 12: 5 tons 90 Power Generated: 12 MCr
Fuel 6 weeks: 1 ton
bridge: 10 tons : Holographic Controls: 0.625 MCr
TL 12 Computer: Rating 20: 5 mCr
Improved Sensors: TL 12: 4 tons 4.3 MCr
Hardpoint 1:
Small Missile Bay: 50 tons: 12 MCr
holds 144 missiles, fires 12 missiles per salvo
2 Staterooms: Double Occupancy: 8 tons: 1 MCr
2 tons Common Area
2 Lowberths: 1 Ton
Crew: 4: Pilot, Engineer, Sensor operator, Gunner
Software: Fire Control 2 (10), Evade 1 (10), Manoeuvre 0
7 tons cargo:
Total Tonnage: 99 Cost: 59.225 MCr
Power Needed 89
Generated 90

This gives me 8 tons to either increase power, add another stateroom, reinforce the hull for 8 more Hull Points or add more armour, but as I said, first Draft. This is 30 MCr cheaper than the 1st edition. Savings were from new costs for M-Drive, Power plant and not shrinking the missile bay.

The other option is to go Advanced Tech and throw in a Meson Gun Bay for 50 tons.


Draft 2: Tech Reduction:
Double Cost of Missile bay from 12 to 24 Mcr
Take 3 tech Advantages and make the weapon 10 percent smaller X 3. Missile bay drops to 35 tons.
Put 5 tons more armour on, increasing armour to 8
put 10 tons into 2 more staterooms and 2 tons of common area.
99 tons and 73.425 Mcr
 
PsiTraveller said:
Nerhesi: Where is the tonnage shirinking for increased tech? All I found was the change in spinal size based on tech level. Or are you referring to the 5% tonnage decrease for tech advantage?

Primitive/Advanced Technology part of Highguard 2.
Weapon and Screen Advantages subsection:

"Size Reduction: This reduces the tonnage consumed by the weapon by 10%."

(It may be taken 3 times)
 
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