Minor errors in Previews

[Anonymous]

Mongoose peep's, you need to errata your preview blurbs for the upcoming books. For instance, Free Companies has a few grammatical, spelling, and punctuation errors. It just looks unprofessional for a professional company to be making these errors on pages people read before they deciding if they want to preorder or not. It has not been edited since it was put up, thus I finally decided to make a post and inform you of this. The Thunder River blurb also has some errors.

Over all, it might be a little better if you made the preview and flavor sections of all your previews shorter, and tighter. At the end of the preview you could also include a small list of the crunchy bits in the book (such as, XX feats, XX prc's, XX new spells, etc etc.)

 

[Anonymous]

Gotta agree with Xex

Sorry guys, I really love the fact that somebody has done a great Conan
RPG, but did you really expect us not to notice the grand magnitude of
screw-ups?

After all, what is the Atlantean issue all about?

I spent $100 bucks over here in New Zealand on the original, and can't
afford to get the 'revised' edition as my current income is limited.

I'm sorry to dump like this, but there are sooo many errors, I have
wondered more than once if anybody proof read or play tested...

Apart from that I am well impressed, so don't get me wrong - basically
I like what you have done...it's just that my background is as a sales
& marketing manager. From what I've seen over the years, companies
that do this too often end up not selling anything, as everybody knows
to expect inferior product...basically due to lack of professionalism.

I for one can say I'm angry that I bought before I'd even heard of the
Atlantean edition.

Mind you - don't feel too bad...after all - what is D&D 3.5 all about?????

 

[SableWyvern]

Over all, it might be a little better if you made the preview and flavor sections of all your previews shorter, and tighter.

I think that this is a good point. As it stands, it is obvious that work and thought goes into every preview; however, I find myself skimming through or skipping most of the flavour text (which makes up the bulk of the preview), especially for items I don't have a strong initial interest in.

This hinders any urge to impulse buy, and quite possibly prevents readers from noticing possible stand-out points that may otherwise interest them in purchasing.

 

[Faraer]

I assume Mongoose knows it's assigned two books MGP 7705.

At the end of the preview you could also include a small list of the crunchy bits in the book (such as, XX feats, XX prc's, XX new spells, etc etc.)

That stuff is the absolute nadir of exploitative powergamer shopping-for-guys d20-culture garbage, and the less I see of it the better. And to actually ennumerate how much of it is practically to admit that it's a matter of quantity, commodity, quota, not content.

 

[Anonymous]

I take it that you do not use classes, feats, spells, etc in your games? You and your players just sit there looking at each other while you read off the geography section from the book, and perhaps tell them a story or two from a conan novel? What a fun game you must run Fraer!

Oh and since when did trolls start getting their paws on a thesaurus?

 

[Faraer]

I'm being accused of trolldom by a guest?

I don't use Mongoose's Conan RPG rules -- I dislike 30-page combat chapters and complex systems of modifiers, and prefer looser rulesets. When I play d20 games I use feats and spells, but I don't lust after new ones for their own sake, which is the mentality that advertising the quantity of 'crunchy bits' plays to.

Some d20 writers sympathize with that appetite, some play to it in spite of themselves. The Conan RPG, though, has a responsibility to the licence and to Howard not to mix up Conan in consumerist powergaming tosh.

 

[The King]

I assume Mongoose knows it's assigned two books MGP 7705.

At the end of the preview you could also include a small list of the crunchy bits in the book (such as, XX feats, XX prc's, XX new spells, etc etc.)

That stuff is the absolute nadir of exploitative powergamer shopping-for-guys d20-culture garbage, and the less I see of it the better. And to actually ennumerate how much of it is practically to admit that it's a matter of quantity, commodity, quota, not content.

I totally agree. If you want feats and power classes, then get a D20 sourcebook. For me a crunchy bits would be adventures, special rules (i.e. naval combats, mass combat, etc.)
Hyborian Age is indeed about an excellent and coherent world imagined by Howard. The flavour of the game comes from there, the rules being only an additive.
The same is true from Middle-Earth for example: you still can play in this world with a lot of magic-users casting a fireball after another. But this has nothing to do with the original creation.

Moreover XX feats display a show of quantity whereas until now Conan RPG has prooved to be rather highly qualitative. And that's what I prefer.

 

[Sutek]

Yep...I personally think every single bit of the stuff written to date for Conan has bit one big "cruchy bit" - it's all usefull and immediately inclusive.

I personally like the long explanatory style of the previwe blurbs, but...ahem...spell check guys...



Beyond that, keep up the fantastic work. I know the maintenance of the web pages is not the easier thing in the world and that full time writers are not often the ones tasked to see to it, so a certain ammount of "error" can be easily forgiven in light of the shere ammount of support and the intent behind it all.

 

[Mournstorm]

Faraer Wrote:

That stuff is the absolute nadir of exploitative powergamer shopping-for-guys d20-culture garbage, and the less I see of it the better. And to actually ennumerate how much of it is practically to admit that it's a matter of quantity, commodity, quota, not content.

I agree as well. My own games of Conan use different mechanics as well, none of my circle of players and GMs preferring D20/OGL methodology. Such seems, to us, more along the lines of a first person shooter computer game mentality than one of roleplaying. Mongoose has one helluva good game with Conan in spite of D20, not because of it and they continue to amaze.

I also echo The King when he says

If you want feats and power classes, then get a D20 sourcebook. For me a crunchy bits would be adventures, special rules (i.e. naval combats, mass combat, etc.)
Hyborian Age is indeed about an excellent and coherent world imagined by Howard. The flavour of the game comes from there, the rules being only an additive.

With that in mind, to answer "Guest" when he asks

You and your players just sit there looking at each other while you read off the geography section from the book, and perhaps tell them a story or two from a conan novel?

: No, I daresay we participate in a co-operative form of improvisational theater called Role Playing (such as Conan the RPG); instead of mini-maxing our characters we play them as participants in the story being told by the GM and the players themselves. What we don't do is Roll play (as in dice with myriad modifiers) as an engine for pseudo entertainment.

 

[XcomSquaddie]

...I personally like the long explanatory style of the previwe blurbs, but...ahem...spell check guys...

snicker.

 

[skalvar]

Hey folks, play nice! You can bash my writing all you like (especially in early drafts) but lets call a ceasefire on the whole Role vs. Roll player thing.

We, as an industry, have failed our customers for the last thirty years by producing interesting worlds with dead dull games/mechanics behind them. Until someone gets it right Roll-players (really character and combat mini-game players) and Role-players (those of us who look for other games in our RPGs) will just have to get along.

Shannon
Current Status: Stealing time to write a superhero game for his Monday group

 

[Anonymous]

Oh please, I am a powergamer because I like coherent listing of whatever is include in a book? At least have some basis for your argument. It is bad form not to inform potential cutromers of what is being offered in a book. Many, many people skim over the overly large blurbs because they become repetitive. And many people actually like using new feats and spells. Otherwise why even have rules anyway? Why not simply run a game from a novel? Or heck why use any other source at all? Idiots.

 

[The King]

And many people actually like using new feats and spells.

In a 128 pages book feats and spells aren't the major content, unless it is called the book of all feats or the tome of magic. So if the title of a book is Pirate Isle for example, I expect it to talk about ships, sailing and pirates. New feats and spells are secondary.

... Idiots.

As to your insult, I don't know whom it is directed at but I guess you should swallow it before typing such silliness. When you post such a topic you should expect some contrary opinion.

 

[SableWyvern]

While Xex's "Idiot" comment was impolite and IMO unnecessary, so too were some of the responses to his constructive criticism.

He is a frequent poster here, who is obviously a fan of Mongoose, and not a whiner. His initial post offered nothing more than a point of view which I read as being intended as no more than useful advice. While I can't speak for Xex, based on his history on the boards, I doubt he would have had a problem with dissenting opinion.

The fact is, blurbs and sales pitches are generally designed to be succinct, catchy and evocative. Mongoose's previews manage the latter, but probably lose a lot of potential readers by missing the former completely.

Feats, spells and PrCs are not synonyms for "Power Gaming Tools". In fact, Mongoose's PrCs, from what I've seen of them, are tools for fleshing out cultures, groups and societies in their gameworlds, and add to the depth of their games. Similarly, the feats in Pirate Isles provide options for Pirate characters that need not have anything to do with "Power Gaming".

On the other hand, why were there feats in Road of Kings at all? They were not related in any real way to the main objective of the book. I can only surmise they were placed there to provide featy crunch because Mongoose believe that a significant part of their customer base want feats. It stands to reason then that it may be worthwhile to advertise this in a preview, which can be done without focusing on their presence unnecessarily.

Faraer's implication that feats and spells should be ignored in previews and are best kept out of Conan products because they are inherrently bad, wrong and antithetical to "What Conan Is", is, IMO, plain silly.

Mongoose's previews serve as an advertising tool. Both Xex and I obviously believe that they could perform this task better. I firmly believe that in their current incarnation, they will turn away many casual readers, while receive praise mainly from those already sold on the product line or company. IMO, the best option would be more concise previews, desinged to evoke interest in a paragraph or two, with links to the more verbose versions we currently have.

 

[The King]

Mongoose's previews serve as an advertising tool. Both Xex and I obviously believe that they could perform this task better. I firmly believe that in their current incarnation, they will turn away many casual readers, while receive praise mainly from those already sold on the product line or company. IMO, the best option would be more concise previews, desinged to evoke interest in a paragraph or two, with links to the more verbose versions we currently have.

I don't totally agree with you. In my eyes, players who want to play the Conan RPG probably do this because they know the setting a little, either from comics, the books or the movies. So if they purchase these books it's foremost because they are interested in the Hyborian Age which is not a fantasy setting created for a D20 or OGL Game.
I consider the Mongoose teaser quite sufficient because they don't tell too much to keep the surprise, as we all know now that the contents are generally excellent. They probably know that players usually appreciate feats and spells and other "crunchy bits" but until now they always included some of all this in the sourcebooks. So I guess anyone should now expect such new things in the upcoming books.
That is why I deem it truly preferable to explain the generality that will comes with the book as I already know they're will be (probably) new feats and spells and creatures and ...
They is no need to start an "argument" between roll and role but frankly I am not sure there would be more buyers if the numbers of spells the summary was already described.
To play with rules and new feats and spells is one thing and to discover new areas of the Hyborian continent is another. However both aren't incompatible.

 

[SableWyvern]

My liege,

I think that we are all fairly much in agreement -- at least as far as Mongoose quality goes. If we weren't fans, we probably wouldn't be on these messageboards, for a start.

Still, this comment,

I consider the Mongoose teaser quite sufficient because they don't tell too much to keep the surprise, as we all know now that the contents are generally excellent.

presupposes we are aware of what Mongoose already puts out. My point of view is that a prospective newcomer may not already be aware, and could well not be bothered reading a sales pitch (and that's what the previews are) that requires him scroll down a page of fairly small print.

I don't think focusing on feats and spells should be top priority. In fact, while I think it may be worthwhile to include that information, I wouldn't know how much sales value it would actually have. It might actually be counter-productive, and beyond stressing that feat does not equal power abuse, I'm not really going to weigh in heavily on that argument. What I do think is important is distilling the previews into something that remains evocative, but is also brief and gramatically sound. Then, once the appetite is whetted, Joe Gamer can click on the "More Detail" link, and get the full flavour text.

Also, note that my opinions aren't restricted to Conan previews, but Mongoose releases in general. When I was planning on picking up Lone Wolf (my first Mongoose purchase), I started skimming after the first paragraph, then gave up completely. I wasn't interested in a history lesson on the Kai and Magnamund, I wanted to know what Mongoose had done with the Lone Wolf license. The preview text didn't tell me. When I saw the Kai class download though, and recognised the excellent job they had done, I was sold.

Similarly with Darklands, I wasn't interested in lots of flavourful text telling me the Darklands are a Bad Place. I know what the Darklands are, and how I visualise them. I wanted to know what the book offered my game. The only preview I've read completely has been Free Companies, and that was only after the topic was brought up in a thread I started.

Of course, none of us in this thread have more than anecdotal evidence for our positions. Hopefully, Mongoose can work out the best path to take and go with it, whether it be keeping things the same (with better editing :wink or trying new strategies.

 

[Faraer]

Faraer's implication that feats and spells should be ignored in previews and are best kept out of Conan products because they are inherrently bad, wrong and antithetical to "What Conan Is", is, IMO, plain silly.

I think that stuff is the least interesting part of RPG books -- that's my own point of view. To *ennumerate* the quantity of such stuff in blurbs, making it a selling point, is explicitly selling rules toys for their own sake, to powergamers -- I think that's objectively true. And they're not a good selling point for this line, because there are other products with more crunchy bits. But there are no other products set in the Hyborian Age.

And many people actually like using new feats and spells. Otherwise why even have rules anyway? Why not simply run a game from a novel?

Rules are one thing. Constant new rules are another: in d20 products in general, forgetting about the Conan RPG for a moment, there is certainly a tendency for new rules that are gratuitous because they represent things the original rules handle perfectly well already, or things that are made up merely as 'flavor' for a new fiddly rules trick.

 

[The King]

... presupposes we are aware of what Mongoose already puts out. My point of view is that a prospective newcomer may not already be aware, and could well not be bothered reading a sales pitch (and that's what the previews are) that requires him scroll down a page of fairly small print.

I understand you point of view but were you a newcomer would you buy a Conan sourcebook without owning the core rules already?
Even if you did, you would have some work to perform if you use, say a D20 system, as this is an OGL version.
For instance with the upcoming Free companies sourcebook, I would guess this is about what the title says as Conan commanded such units (kozakis, zuagirs, etc.). Reading the teaser text, I learned it was to be a sourcebook on wars and armies in the Hyborian Age, what is definitely more complete as the title let us guess. All the rest (if there are new spells or feats or new weapons) is not very useful until I have the book. I prefer to "discover" each page of the book when I have it in my hands then to know now what will be within. However, I would appreciate if it was written that it will include one or two adventures.

 

[Sutek]

Oh please, I am a powergamer because I like coherent listing of whatever is include in a book? At least have some basis for your argument. It is bad form not to inform potential cutromers of what is being offered in a book. Many, many people skim over the overly large blurbs because they become repetitive. And many people actually like using new feats and spells. Otherwise why even have rules anyway? Why not simply run a game from a novel? Or heck why use any other source at all? Idiots.

Why do people like you even bother to show up in open forums like this?

Here's something for ya: It's D20 and OGL - they have to put new feats and classes in there as part of the liscence agreement. Read that an d you'll know what bare minimums have to be in each OGL based publication.

I would ask where your evidence comes from that "Many, many people skim over the overly large blurbs because they become repetitive" comes from since no one here shares that opinion - just you Xex.

As to the comment "Why not simply run a game from a novel", that would entai lusing one's imagination and you've made clear that you need things spelled out , so I see where you're confused on this point. It's a little something I like to call "role playing game" and the premise is simply running a game out of a novel.

And finally, to the "idiot" insult thrown out to the board in general...

...nah...no comment. Just back off and quit being such a snide little punk.