Minimum damage?

[canology]

A discussion came up during our pre-game bookkeeping last night when we were finally working up the stats for one of the PC's hawk familiar.

A standard hawk does 1d6-1d8 damage with its claws and 1d4-1d8 with its beak. Which seems semi-reasonable until you remember that on average a hawk isn't even going to be able to kill a mouse or a pidgeon, which are (I am fairly certain) routinely killed by hawks in reality.

We decided that cutting attacks (like claws, beaks, etc) should do at least a minimum of 1 point of damage (prior to AP being subtracted).

Any thoughts on this rather small issue?

I mean besides "See? The game system is completely unusable as written!!!!!!" :roll:

 

[Rurik]

Don't forget to give the hawk it's 1d4 charge bonus when diving.

I'd lean against minumum damage, but obviously you could rule either way.

Negative Damage Modifiers are actually much more common (and severe) in MRQ than earlier versions. With Scout Dragonewts in MRQ their damage bonus (for an average one) is Minus 1d4, while they had no penalty at all under RQ3, even though the stats are exactly the same. Since all their weapons do 1d6, and their penalty is 1d4, they often do no damage on a hit. (No, I haven't been preparing Dragonewt foes, why do you ask?)

My take was that it is a problem that will rarely affect players (though your familiar is an exception). The most common application I considered is that spells will be used to reduce stats, and if as a result someone is rendered so weak as to potentially deal no damage so be it.

A mouse is pretty small by RQ standards, and it could be determined to have less than 1 hp. The system doesn't really scale that small well. I mean a hawk is about the size of a large Dragon compared to a mouse. Do you give the mouse HP's? Does it have one Location or do you roll for location? Or do you just rule that when a hawk sucessfully hits a mouse or pigeon it is dead. I would tend towards the latter.

I actually know someone who was attacked by a hawk once (they were wearing a rabbitskin cap), and while kinda scarred up they weren't really seriously hurt (losing an eye would have been the biggest danger).

It is, I hear, a pretty horrific experience though.

 

[weasel_fierce]

For something the size of a hawk, I'd assume 1 point minimum.

 

[Utgardloki]

One thought I've had is finding a way to assess fractional damage. That way, Mr. Hawk vs Mr. Ogre is going to result in Mr. Ogre merely being annoyed, but Mr. Hawk vs Mr. Wimpy will result in Mr. Wimpy getting hurt.

Perhaps it would be better to use an idea discussed in one of the Size threads, and allow for fractional size. The way this works is that if you want a battle with a very small opponent, multiply all Size values by 10 and proceed. Creatures with Size between 0.1 and 0.9 end up with Size 1 and Size 9. Creatures larger than Size 3 would not need to bother keeping track of the decimal, but for creatures of Size 1 or Size 2, the decimal could be important.

It's on my "to do" list.

 

[weasel_fierce]

Honestly, given that MRQ is a bit more generous with HP than in the past, I think 1 point of damage, before armour, isnt going to break anything.

 

[Deleted_Account]

A charging hawk using his claws does:
D = 1d6+1d8+1d4-9 damage. (it works out!)

d4: min d6 + d8 to do damage
1: 9
2: 8
3: 7
4: 6

Total(d6+d8): Combinations, Culmulative Count, Weight, CWF
2: 1, 1, 2, 2
3: 2, 3, 6, 8
4: 3, 6, 12, 20
5: 4, 10, 20, 40
6: 5, 15, 30, 70
7: 6, 21, 42, 112
8: 6, 27, 48, 160
9: 6, 33, 54, 214
10: 5, 38, 50, 264
11: 4, 42, 44, 308
12: 3, 45, 36, 344
13: 2, 47, 26, 370
14: 1, 48, 14, 384

CWF(X, a to b) = sum(i from a to b)( i * count(i) )
CWF(X-k, k to b) = sum(i from k to b)( (i-k) * count(i))
CWF(X-k, k to b) = sum(i from k to b)( i * count(i) - k * count(i) )
CWF(X-k, k to b) = sum(i from k to b)( i * count(i)) - k * sum(i from k to b)(count(i) )

CWF(X-k, k to b) = CWF(X, a to b) - k * Count(X, k to b)

and AVG(CWF(X, min to max) / Count(X, min to max))

d6+d8 - 8: ((384-160) - 8 * (48-27)) / 48 =~ 1.167
d6+d8 - 7: ((384-112) - 7 * (48-21)) / 48 =~ 1.729
d6+d8 - 6: ((384-70) - 6 * (48-15)) / 48 =~ 2.417
d6+d8 - 5: ((384-40) - 5 * (48-10)) / 48 =~ 3.208

Total average damage from a hawk charging and hitting once with a claw: ~2.130

Not charging, it is ~1.167.

 

[iamtim]

I think a lot of it has to do with the damage bonuses being calculated as a human-centric thing. A human with a strength of 3 is the penultimate weakling; a hawk with a strength of 3 is one badassed hawk. Yet the damage bonus table treats them both the same.

Maybe there needs to be different damage bonus tables based on scale?

For what it's worth, I've not found an RPG that scales down very well. Fudge comes close, but even then it's more of a kludge than anything else.

 

[iamtim]

A charging hawk using his claws does:
D = 1d6+1d8+1d4-9 damage. (it works out!)

d4: min d6 + d8 to do damage
1: 9
2: 8
3: 7
4: 6

Total(d6+d8): Combinations, Culmulative Count, Weight, CWF
2: 1, 1, 2, 2
3: 2, 3, 6, 8
4: 3, 6, 12, 20
5: 4, 10, 20, 40
6: 5, 15, 30, 70
7: 6, 21, 42, 112
8: 6, 27, 48, 160
9: 6, 33, 54, 214
10: 5, 38, 50, 264
11: 4, 42, 44, 308
12: 3, 45, 36, 344
13: 2, 47, 26, 370
14: 1, 48, 14, 384

CWF(X, a to b) = sum(i from a to b)( i * count(i) )
CWF(X-k, k to b) = sum(i from k to b)( (i-k) * count(i))
CWF(X-k, k to b) = sum(i from k to b)( i * count(i) - k * count(i) )
CWF(X-k, k to b) = sum(i from k to b)( i * count(i)) - k * sum(i from k to b)(count(i) )

CWF(X-k, k to b) = CWF(X, a to b) - k * Count(X, k to b)

and AVG(CWF(X, min to max) / Count(X, min to max))

d6+d8 - 8: ((384-160) - 8 * (48-27)) / 48 =~ 1.167
d6+d8 - 7: ((384-112) - 7 * (48-21)) / 48 =~ 1.729
d6+d8 - 6: ((384-70) - 6 * (48-15)) / 48 =~ 2.417
d6+d8 - 5: ((384-40) - 5 * (48-10)) / 48 =~ 3.208

Total average damage from a hawk charging and hitting once with a claw: ~2.130

Not charging, it is ~1.167.

Ever heard of the Hybrid RPG?

 

[canology]

A charging hawk using his claws does:
D = 1d6+1d8+1d4-9 damage. (it works out!)

d4: min d6 + d8 to do damage
1: 9
2: 8
3: 7
4: 6

Total(d6+d8): Combinations, Culmulative Count, Weight, CWF
2: 1, 1, 2, 2
3: 2, 3, 6, 8
4: 3, 6, 12, 20
5: 4, 10, 20, 40
6: 5, 15, 30, 70
7: 6, 21, 42, 112
8: 6, 27, 48, 160
9: 6, 33, 54, 214
10: 5, 38, 50, 264
11: 4, 42, 44, 308
12: 3, 45, 36, 344
13: 2, 47, 26, 370
14: 1, 48, 14, 384

CWF(X, a to b) = sum(i from a to b)( i * count(i) )
CWF(X-k, k to b) = sum(i from k to b)( (i-k) * count(i))
CWF(X-k, k to b) = sum(i from k to b)( i * count(i) - k * count(i) )
CWF(X-k, k to b) = sum(i from k to b)( i * count(i)) - k * sum(i from k to b)(count(i) )

CWF(X-k, k to b) = CWF(X, a to b) - k * Count(X, k to b)

and AVG(CWF(X, min to max) / Count(X, min to max))

d6+d8 - 8: ((384-160) - 8 * (48-27)) / 48 =~ 1.167
d6+d8 - 7: ((384-112) - 7 * (48-21)) / 48 =~ 1.729
d6+d8 - 6: ((384-70) - 6 * (48-15)) / 48 =~ 2.417
d6+d8 - 5: ((384-40) - 5 * (48-10)) / 48 =~ 3.208

Total average damage from a hawk charging and hitting once with a claw: ~2.130

Not charging, it is ~1.167.

Wait a sec...
How can it do a non-charging average of 1.167 when the average on the d8 exceeds that of the d6?

Doesn't it boil down to 3.5 - 4.5 = -1???

(I admit that the statistical math you did in your post is beyond my capacity to follow).

 

[duncan_disorderly]

Wait a sec...
How can it do a non-charging average of 1.167 when the average on the d8 exceeds that of the d6?

Doesn't it boil down to 3.5 - 4.5 = -1???

(I admit that the statistical math you did in your post is beyond my capacity to follow).

I'd agree, the average of d6-d8 is -1 (Add up all the possible combinations from +5 to -7 and divide by the total number of permutations = -48/48

If you don't allow the Hawk to do negative damage (so every negative score is treated as 0) then it becomes 35/48 ~ 0.729

If you say it has to do a minimum of 1 point then it becomes 68/48 ~ 1.417