Miniatures and Attacks of Opportunity

[Auggie]

Friends, does anyone here actually use miniatures and the AoO in their roleplaying sessions? I've been running my Conan campaign for over a year and a half and have not done so. Obviously, not using a grid map and such prevents the use of most Attacks of Opportunity, but we've done fine without them.

Recently, I've begun to use one or two circumstances for AoO without having to bog down our combats on a map. They work well for the abstract vision of combat that we normally use in place of maps and miniatures. I'm just wondering if I'm the odd-man-out here.

My players prefer the more 'traditional' way of resolving combats in an RPG and don't want to use miniatures and maps. Is my campaign really missiing out on something, or is it a case of "to each his own"? Your comments would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Banite]

I've only ever used them for massed combat, largely I think it's to each their own. A map, and some markers, can easily be replaced by strong descriptions with enough information to use some good old fashioned imagination.

If you manage to get by without them, and your players prefer it, eh, "why risk ruining a good thing" would probably be the first thing that crossed my mind.

 

[urdinaran]

We use miniatures and a Chessex gid map using dry-erase markers. Only use it for combat though, or if I am provided with a map, from Mongoose.

 

[MadDog]

...all the time in combat.

Mad Dog

 

[Mournstorm]

I've used miniatures for combat and other situations for almost 30 years of Roleplay. I've also run online pbem games without them. Both methods have their pros and cons; overall though I prefer miniatures and a good chessex type gridmap.

 

[Zul Daire]

We use minis/ maps for combat all the time. Not for anything else though.

When d20 first came out I hated the ideas of AOO's. It was confusing at first and who likes the idea of being attacked more?

But it made sense and as we played more it became easier to keep up with. Now we wouldn't get rid of them.

As far as are you missing out on alot? More feats, more unpredictabilty in combat, more chances to kill and get killed.

But if they were gone tomorrow it wouldn't change the game that dramatically.

But then my Dr. Pepper stained Chessex map and Vis a Vis markers would get no use and that ain't right!

 

[arnon]

I got a whiteboard with an un-erasable black grid, and three erasable markers (PCs, enemies, terrain). No matter how good I can describe an area at the start of a combat, it always nice to have a visual representation.

As for AoO. I know some people who have dismissed them from their games (I hear AGoT has no AoO) and are happy with that... personally, I like them and the randomness and precauation they add to combat. I don't see how not using a map/grid eliminates its use.

arnon

 

[argo]

We use minis/battlemat/AoO's all the time. This has two effects that my group appreicates. First of all it pushes combat more towards the tactictal wargamming end of the spectrum. Secondly it means that each player's turn in combat doesnt have to start with two minutes of question-and-answer nonsense (ok, so there was one bandit with a spear over by the horses and one is fighting Bob by the cart? No, there are two by the horses and one has a spear and one has a bow. Thats not what you said, the one with the bow droped it to go attack Joe, didn't he?).

Honestly, my experience with AoO's is that everybody complains about how complicated they are at first but if you just play with them for a while they become second nature quickly and do not really slow down combat at all.

Still, I've said it before and I'll say it again, AoO's are mostly a self-contained sub system so removing them from your game probably will not cause any major difficulties.

Hope that helps.

 

[Bregales]

Yeah, I had always preferred narrative GMing, but with my present group of players (now playing for what 3 years I guess? About 6 months before the 1st ed of Conan RPG came out) they have always INSISTED on maps and counters, so when I tested/started my campaign I used them as a matter of course.

They eliminate the chance of players misunderstanding your descriptions, but they reduce "realistic" movement to checkers or chess-like tactics. That's okay in the general sense though, especially where Attacks of Opportunity are concerned. I never bought maps, the other guys in the group have spent about $400 in various forms of dry-erase boards and maps, so I use one of theirs instead, only for combat. I describe scenes in general, or if a pre-pub adventure (or my homerun "House of Xopalun") I show them or map the entire terrain, but in general I try to keep it to combat situations only.

I usually roll for surprise or say, "Roll spot checks" and then they groan and I break out the maps.

If your system works fine w/out them, no need to change at this point I say. It is advantageous in certain aspects, but you lose some of your own style when adapting to counters/minis and maps, so do what you feel best at.

Just a note: I mentioned gametesting. When I first read the combat and saw how deadly it could be, I suggesting running a mock batle. The guys made up 5 characters, I made up 7 npcs and quickly drew out a street map ala Arenjun. When I killed them all very quickly, we realized we were playing a game based on D&D 3.x but adapted significantly, and certainly more deadly! They have since played with tactics in mind so as not to die as they did that first playtest! (I ran two scenarios, TPKs in both). I haven't killed them like that since we actually started the campaign, so maybe the caught on quickly, but it showed how AoOs work and how to use maps effectively! :twisted:

 

[BigSteveUK]

Hi,

Slightly off topic but what scale and makes of miniatures do you use?

Cheers,

Steve

 

[ricardo440]

Why just because you don't use Miniatures can't you use attacks of oppertunity.

If a character is fighting another one and moves away without withdrawing then that is an AoO
If a character has a bow and tries to shoot it while being attacked then AoO.

There are plenty of AoO situations that don't need a grid.

 

[Oates]

Minis make the whole AoO concept easier to comprehend, for me at least.

 

[High Lord Dee]

With the complexity of combat in 3.0+, I do not see how you can run combat accurately without miniatures or grids. The movement grid is actually more important than the mini's (but not as cool!). Too many important variables can be missed that can change the outcome of the battle.

Not only AoO but flanking in general requires careful movement procedures. Without the grid, certain actions such as tumble and delay can become less valuable (or at least more difficult to manage).

All of this is only important IF you want to use all the combat features. It is your game afterall. We never used any of these extras for years and still had fun. The choice is yours but I would recommend at least trying out grids and minis before you make up your mind.

 

[High Lord Dee]

Hi,

Slightly off topic but what scale and makes of miniatures do you use?

Cheers,

Steve

I have both 25mm and 28mm. The 25mm works best for me because I use the Dwarven Forge Dungeon and Cavern tiles and the 28mm just don't fit well.

Ever since the pre-painted plastic D&D mini line became available, I have become an avid collector. For 25 years I have collected the metal figures. I even painted my fair share in the day but I am finding the plastics are superior for gaming. One advantage is to quickly determine size. It no longer is subjective using the WoC line since the bases are universally sized to match the D&D rules (S,M,L,H, etc.).

After you invest several hours to just get that paint job looking great, it is stressful watching a player knock one over (sometimes un-intentionally). The new pre-painted figures can take a beating and now there is so much variety that you get used to the inferior paint jobs. Once they are on the table, they look great. They can be stored in plastic bags also so storage space in minimal. They transport well too.

I also have a vast collection of painted GW LOTR 25mm (although I will admit that I had someone else paint them). They look fantastic but are a bit too fragile for gaming sessions. Expect touch up and keep the super glue stocked.

One big challenge is that there really is no good solution to accurately represent Hyboria figures out there today. I guess you could piece together different lines from different companies but at that point, I may elect to go with markers (like the ones from the Shadizar boxed set). Consistancy on the table is more important than individual molds or paint jobs. But my players are so used to the minis, it would not be a popular move. Maybe Mongoose can help?

 

[urdinaran]

I have been painting miniatures for 20+ years now. In Conan I use a mixture of GW Mordheim miniatures and Reaper miniatures. At my local gaming store, the owner uses the D&D prepainted minis for the games he runs.

 

[thulsa]

One big challenge is that there really is no good solution to accurately represent Hyboria figures out there today. I guess you could piece together different lines from different companies but at that point, I may elect to go with markers (like the ones from the Shadizar boxed set).

Enter... The Hyborian Age Paper Miniatures!

Paper miniatures are cheap to print (so you can easily create a horde of, say, Darfari Cannibals) and expendable (so the counters can be written on, colored, or ripped to pieces by vindictive player characters...).

I've created a few which are available for download here:

http://hyboria.xoth.net/resources/index.htm

Set #1:
- Cannibal of Darfar
- Ghoul of Yanaidar
- Serpentman Sorcerer of Valusia

Set #2:
- Zamboulan Beggar
- Turanian Soldier
- Shemite Brigand
- Neanderthal Man




- thulsa

 

[Ash-Amon-Tep]

The D20 system is made to use minatures. D20 is not a good narrative system such as like 7th sea, in fact I'd say it's terrible . Without physical repersentions of battle the combat system cannot work. first let me say I'm biased because I need to see what is going on, not just sorta get one persons point of veiw. the map is what makes combat tactical, and most of that is it's movement which is affected by attacks of opportunity. Classes are also affected by this, such as barbarain which has the mobility chain, and Many feats are useless or very under powered. The scholar is probaly the most affected because attacks of opportunity are the one thing that they must fear the most from a sword weilding warrior without them they can cast spells or throw kothic demon fire no matter what danger they are in. D20 needs to use a grided map for combat otherwise use a diffent system. the D20 combat system is it's saving grace.

 

[Auggie]

Wow, friends, thanks for the great feedback. I have adapted a few of the Attacks of Opportunity for use in our 'narrative' combats. I think we'll save the minis and maps for our Star Wars Miniatures game, but we would be open to trying it in Conan in the future. Again, thanks for all of your points of view

 

[Mark Dunder]

BigSteveUK

what scale and makes of miniatures do you use?

I use 1/72 scale which is usually a little smaller than many of the fantasy minitures. Most of those seem to be 28mm or so. I picked this scale because I use Pica (due to this I call this scale "Pica" scale) rulers which allow me to create accurate scale maps down to half an inch!

I play a wide variety of RPGs, Aftermath, Wild West, Traveller, Paranoia (granted that scale is only token for Paranoia), and a few others. Lately, I've been concentrating on TSRs Conan RPG (a non d20 system) and use 1/4 inch squares which equates to a cubit or 18 inches in Pica scale.

I like to create a lot of 3d objects from Sculpy clay. I also use foam core board for a few walls. I don't leave the walls in place much, but I use them more for line of site and cover.

Anyway, that's how I do it.

 

[Zul Daire]

Ever since the pre-painted plastic D&D mini line became available, I have become an avid collector.
The new pre-painted figures can take a beating and now there is so much variety that you get used to the inferior paint jobs. Once they are on the table, they look great. They can be stored in plastic bags also so storage space in minimal. They transport well too.

I was against these at first but now an avid collector. There is a great selection of various warrior types in various armor/ weapons.

The trick is to buy them off Ebay Stores instead ofthe randomness of the booster packs.

They're like $.99 and can buy them in multiples. Alakhazam, Instant patrol, tower guards, caravan guards, whatever you need!

For fodder these guys are great but I still use metals for the big baddies imprtant NPC's.