MgT Core Rulebook Medic versus CT Medic

[snrdg121408]

Hello everyone,

During the discussion on the topic Core Rulebook Crew Question 1 Medics
one of the bits of information was that MgT implied a Medic-2 was equal to
a doctor. While looking for some other information I flipped to CT: Book 1
Characters and Combat I saw the text for Medic on page 20. Here is how
CT breaks down the Medic skill.

Medic-1 sufficient qualifications for a position as medic on a starship crew.

Medic-2 or better allows a DM of +1 when reviving low passengers.

Medic-3 sufficient qualifications to be called doctor. Dexterity of 8+ is
required for a doctor to also be a surgeon.

 

[alex_greene]

I kind of based my Medic article in Signs & Portents on this.

If it helps, think of the Medic skills breakdowns as follows:-

Medic-0: In training. Med school student. First Aider.

Medic-1: Basic starter level for paramedics / EMTs. Junior Doctors, usually assigned an internship in a hospital a la Grey's Anatomy. Hopefully, not so much of the bed hopping as in that show in your Traveller campaign, and more of a focus on the medicine.

Medic-2: Can join a medical practice as a qualified General Practitioner. Licensed to dispense medicine.

Medic-3: Attending Physician at a hospital. If the physician has the Instruction skill, she can now begin training junior Doctors / interns. Think of Bailey, again from Grey's Anatomy. Without the Instruction skill, the medic is at least qualified to hold a position of considerable prestige in the medical community. At this stage private practice is also feasible, and highly lucrative, though at this level a Medic-3 is likely to be considered a junior partner in the practice.

Medic-4: Can hold a senior position, the head of a Department or even Chief of Medicine at a hospital. At this level of skill, the medic will usually have participated in several major surgeries, and is likely to have a reputation that extends around the country. Many private medics can attain this level of skill, mostly because the money that they get can give them all the training opportunities to improve their skills unavailable to State medics. For comparison, this is the level of Doctor Crusher in TNG.

Medic-5: This is serious Christian Barnardo / Watson and Crick territory. A medic with this level of skill is a virtual legend. Medics can publish scientific papers in medical journals from about Medic-2 onwards, and a few lucky young Doctors can stumble upon something groundbreaking from as low as Medic-1; but these giants in the medical field are famous for publishing at least one, perhaps several, papers of major import: the sorts of breakthroughs that revolutionise medicine, like the development of IVF or the first human organ transplants. For comparison, this should be the level for Doctor Leonard "Bones" McCoy in TOS. I don't know what Dr Stephen Franklin's Medic skill is like in Babylon 5, but for his work on the Drakh Plague, and the discovery (sadly too late) of the cure for the Markab Drafa Virus etc., it should be at this level. Really.

 

[EDG]

Hello everyone,

During the discussion on the topic Core Rulebook Crew Question 1 Medics
one of the bits of information was that MgT implied a Medic-2 was equal to
a doctor. While looking for some other information I flipped to CT: Book 1
Characters and Combat I saw the text for Medic on page 20. Here is how
CT breaks down the Medic skill.

Evidently it's different now .

People really have to decide what edition of the rules they're using for their games and stick to it. If you're being consistent about it then the contradictions/differences won't be an issue.

 

[BP]

If I recall correctly (not that I often do :wink - CT was very specific on skill level 0 (specific 'default' skills I believe) whereas MgT applies it universally. So the MgT Medic-2 may be equivalent to CT Medic-3...

 

[iainjcoleman]

A doctor in MgT is also quite likely to have a +1 Education bonus to Medic rolls. CT doesn't have stat bonuses, so the two systems give roughly equivalent results with their respective treatments of the Medic skill.

 

[Golan2072]

Medic-5: This is serious Christian Barnardo / Watson and Crick territory. A medic with this level of skill is a virtual legend. Medics can publish scientific papers in medical journals from about Medic-2 onwards, and a few lucky young Doctors can stumble upon something groundbreaking from as low as Medic-1; but these giants in the medical field are famous for publishing at least one, perhaps several, papers of major import: the sorts of breakthroughs that revolutionise medicine, like the development of IVF or the first human organ transplants. For comparison, this should be the level for Doctor Leonard "Bones" McCoy in TOS. I don't know what Dr Stephen Franklin's Medic skill is like in Babylon 5, but for his work on the Drakh Plague, and the discovery (sadly too late) of the cure for the Markab Drafa Virus etc., it should be at this level. Really.

Research should probably use the Life Sciences (Biology) skill instead of Medic; the former is about lab work; the latter is about clinical practice. A doctor with Medic-5 should be able to perform these rare "miracle" operations fixing "incurable" medical conditions by a feat of sheer medical (or surgical) skill.

 

[alex_greene]

Medic-5: This is serious Christian Barnardo / Watson and Crick territory.

Research should probably use the Life Sciences (Biology) skill instead of Medic; the former is about lab work; the latter is about clinical practice. A doctor with Medic-5 should be able to perform these rare "miracle" operations fixing "incurable" medical conditions by a feat of sheer medical (or surgical) skill.

Someone with this level of Medic is likely to be the surgeon who performs the actual groundbreaking surgery for the very first time, whether it's the first heart transplant, the first open heart surgery or brain surgery, the first keyhole procedure or face transplant or whatever.

However, it is a virtual certainty that the Medic has commensurate skill in Life Sciences (Transplant Medicine) or Life Sciences (OB-GYN) or whatever, in order to have the required knowledge to carry out the procedure. If he has Medic-4, it's pretty certain that he also has Life Sciences (his medical speciality)-4 or even -5.

I imagine Dr Gregory House, MD to have pretty high Life Sciences skills, and perhaps only Medic-4. It's his high Intelligence coupled with his body of Life Sciences skills that gets results.

It's possible for a decent medic of lower skill in Life Sciences and Medic to perform a dangerous and risky procedure that has never before been attempted, but by far the most common use for Medic skill with Travellers is plain old battlefield surgery, of which plenty of literature already exists in the real world - and imagine how much more will be available to Traveller medics in 3,500 years' time.

 

[snrdg121408]

Evening alex_greene,

Thank you for the reply and the great article on medics. With that
reminder I now know why the CT Medic levels seemed familiar.

 

[snrdg121408]

Hello EDG,

Thank you for the reply and the comment.

In my opinion, even before reviewing the CT Medic description, and based
on the comments made in the Core Rulebook Crew Question 1 Medics
topic post has created a small issue in the MgT Medic skill set description.

Based on my RW experience I translate the Medic Skill as follows:

Medic-0 Basic first aid training gained from an number civilian organizations or in the millitary.

Medic-1 EMT level of training

Medic-2 Paramedics, nurses, and Doctors out of medical school

Medic-3 or better Doctors with at least 2 years experience.

:shock: I see a possible way that shows I may out to lunch on this one.

 

[cbrunish]

Based on my RW experience I translate the Medic Skill as follows:

Medic-0 Basic first aid training gained from an number civilian organizations or in the millitary.

Medic-1 EMT level of training

Medic-2 Paramedics, nurses, and Doctors out of medical school

Medic-3 or better Doctors with at least 2 years experience.

:shock: I see a possible way that shows I may out to lunch on this one.

I like the above suggestions. As a RW Paramedic, in another post I suggested that Medic-0 as EMT, Medic-1 as RN or Paramedic, and Medic-2 as Doctor. But that was with the assumption that Medic-2 was a Dr. (as TMB shows). But it did leave out the basic first-aider. I remember first aid in Basic Training for the Army. It was pretty intense! (not counting the Drill Sergeants :shock: ) But it was not the same as an EMT learns.

I think that I will use your idea for my campaign. Thanks for the ideas.

 

[cbrunish]

It has also been pointed out that a Dr. should have some life science skills. So if a Dr. has medic-2 (fresh from med school). They would also have biology-2. Where as a Medic or RN would not. Although you could think to give the RN at least biology-0 or biology-1. This would be due to the diversity of RN training. Paramedic training is more specialized. We only learn what we need to know (emergency medicine) where as an RN might work any where from the ER to Psych to Surgery.

Just some thoughts.

 

[snrdg121408]

Morning cbrunish,

Thanks for dropping by and lending some keyboard time on a reply. As
mentioned my view, at least I think I mentioned this, in the thread relating
to Core Rulebook Crew Question 1 Medics is how I've thought of the
Medic skill set. Okay, I'll admit I didn't put a doctor fresh out of medical
school as Medic-2 until now.

Glad to be able to provide a detail that is usable in the TU. Again thank
you for your service to the community as a paramedic. Paramedics rock.

 

[snrdg121408]

Hello again cbrunish,

It has also been pointed out that a Dr. should have some life science skills. So if a Dr. has medic-2 (fresh from med school). They would also have biology-2. Where as a Medic or RN would not. Although you could think to give the RN at least biology-0 or biology-1. This would be due to the diversity of RN training. Paramedic training is more specialized. We only learn what we need to know (emergency medicine) where as an RN might work any where from the ER to Psych to Surgery.

Just some thoughts.

Oops, I forgot to include the military medic/corpsman as Medic-2, thanks
for the reminder. Good additions to the details for MEdic.

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

I'm going to play devil's advocate here and state that I think the title of doctor has almost nothing to do with level of medical skill.

There are doctors that I wouldn't trust to put on a bandaid and EMTs that I think could perform Brain Surgery.

In game terms, Doctor is a RANK, not a skill level.

A normal doctor might have Medic-2, but there will be licensed doctors that have Medic 0 just like there can be EMTs with Medic-3.

A battlefield medic (not a doctor, a "nurse") might be able to do trauma surgery that the head of Emergency Medicine at a major hospital would not want to try. Department Heads are selected for their administration skill, not their medical skill.

 

[BP]

I'm going to play devil's advocate here and state that I think the title of doctor has almost nothing to do with level of medical skill...

Well stated. I've used the 'equivalent' term - i.e. Medic-2 'could' be a doctor is what Core states on pg 4.

These are skill competencies. Otherwise we should have - Doctor-1, Nurse-5, Paramedic-3...

Some definitions of skill levels are a little too specific. For instance, Medic-4 being famous doesn't make sense as an absolute statement. In point of fact - most extreme experts are not famous nor well published - they neither have the time nor the inclination. Thus, even in their own fields they are often rarely known by name. (And often the people 'credited' with a theory, technique or discovery are not, in point of fact the true, originators).

 

[cbrunish]

I'm going to play devil's advocate here and state that I think the title of doctor has almost nothing to do with level of medical skill.

There are doctors that I wouldn't trust to put on a bandaid and EMTs that I think could perform Brain Surgery.

:lol: :lol: :lol:
OMG!!! That is so true! Unfortunatly this is found everywhere. There are some Paramedics that I wouldn't let touch me or my family for all the tea in China. (Is there really that much tea in China?) The same for some Drs. There are also nurses that are just terrible, only going into the profession due to the good pay.

In my old guard unit, the medical officer (and my boss) was a PA. I really learned alot about medicine from him. Even though he was "only a PA" I would rate him up their with some of the best doctors I've seen.

 

[Ishmael]

I agree with RikkiTikkiTraveller and will even go one further.....

I don't think skill level is a measure of proficiency as much as its a measure of hands-on experience and thus is only PART of the measure of proficiency. Stats ( natural talent ) makes up another part and together they show just how good someone really is.

An intern fresh out of medical school is a doctor but may have lower skill level in practice than a grizzled combat medic when it comes to emergency 'saving lives' and that combat medic is not a Doctor.

so yeah, I feel Doctor, nurse, EMT, etc. are just titles and should not be tied to skill level.

Imagine if other career titles were tied to skill levels.... to be a Captain of a ship, you need a skill level of 'x' in ship tactics....skill level 'x' in fleet tactics determines if you can be an Admiral.

 

[Cleon the Mad]

I'm going to play devil's advocate here and state that I think the title of doctor has almost nothing to do with level of medical skill.

There are doctors that I wouldn't trust to put on a bandaid and EMTs that I think could perform Brain Surgery.

In game terms, Doctor is a RANK, not a skill level.

A normal doctor might have Medic-2, but there will be licensed doctors that have Medic 0 just like there can be EMTs with Medic-3.

A battlefield medic (not a doctor, a "nurse") might be able to do trauma surgery that the head of Emergency Medicine at a major hospital would not want to try. Department Heads are selected for their administration skill, not their medical skill.

My take has always been what the average doctor has for a skill minimum, and thus what most SHOLD have, but yes as you point out some might not since it is a title.

Otherwise, if I'm not setting up something specific, and the player characters go talk to a normal MD for some reason, he'll probably have medic-2, I might throw in a point or two in a life science if I'm running MGT. If am setting up something more specific, then yes I may add in points for a more noted doctor, or give an inept doctor medic 1 or even medic 0 and figure out a background as to why the doctor in question is more skilled then the average, or more inept then the average as the case might be.

Anyway, I think the idea is to set up a guideline, what the average RN, EMT, doctor and so forth SHOULD have and go from there.

As an aside, for those familiar with let's say MASH (going with mostly the TV show, the movie is too hazy for me to remember), I'd give "Hotlips" Hoolighan (sp?) Medic 2 at least and maybe admin 1 or 2 at least due to being the head nurse of that MASH unit. She isn't a qualified doctor, but a TL 9+ version of Major Hoolighan (sp?) would probably be very qualified to operate the low berths on a starship, and if a MD can't be found would be fine as a the medic on a free trader, and so forth.

 

[BP]

...I'd give "Hotlips" Hoolighan (sp?) Medic 2 at least ...

Oh, I'd give her at least a 7 maybe an 8...
oh... Medic? That's different...

 

[BP]

...If am setting up something more specific, then yes I may add in points for a more noted doctor, or give an inept doctor medic 1 or even medic 0 and figure out a background as to why the doctor in question is more skilled then the average, or more inept then the average as the case might be...

Deception-2! :twisted:

From what you are saying, you tend to agree that the skill level is by and large separate from the title as Rikki pointed out. And I like Ishmael's take on it too. Of course, to be a doctor one requires at least Medic skill (though Deception and Jack-of-all-Trades could also 'qualify' one for the title).

Being experienced in Corporate America - I've always thought it would be realistic to have NPCs who are not actually qualified for the jobs they have (i.e. an Engineer who doesn't know a jump drive from a toaster; a gunner with no gunnery skill; and, now I can add a bogus Medic!).