Massive Damage Saves

[Iorwerth]

I am planning on starting a Conan game but am a little concerned about the Massive damage save. It seems very draconian to have a very hard save v death every time you take more than 20 damage (even though you can buy a second life with fate points).

I do like a system where you can die from 1 blow but was wondering if there was a better way of doing this. My current idea is to have a few new house rules, and would like to get some feedback on them from someone who knows more about the system.

My new house rules would be:

1. If you take over 20 points of damage in a single blow then you need to make a fort saving throw, but rather than death if you fail, you are just knocked unconscious instead.

2. When rolling for damage, every time you roll the maximum on a dice you get to roll it again and add it on - theoretically, therefore, you could do tons of damage, though the chances of rolling lots of maximums are obviously small. In other games my players like this rule, as they like rolling lots of dice!

3. Use the critical and fumble tables from dndadventure.com. These increase the danger from criticals and can lead to a death wound regardless of the damage actually done in the blow.

These changes would mean that anything can still die from 1 blow, thus still keeping an air of gritty realism in the combat, but doesn't involve a save v death every time you take 20+ damage

What do others think about these changes?

 

[rgrove0172]

Im just a newbie at the system, and brand new at D&D3.5 as well, but I will comment if thats ok.

The Conan RPG seems to strive hard to capture the feel of the Robert E. Howard stories and having been a Howard fan for years I will admit, they are pretty dang bloody. The number of time Conan dispatched a foe in one fell sweep of his blade, or in turn narrowly missed having his head lopped off by inches as he ducked and lost a lock of hair instead are beyond count. When I read the rule I found it pretty gritty too, but it seems to fall in to the mythos pretty well. I think the Fate Points protect the characters pretty well in this regard, and if not - well I would suspect most heros have a shorter lifespan in Hyboria than they would elsewhere. Its just the way of the genre.

 

[thulsa]

I am planning on starting a Conan game but am a little concerned about the Massive damage save. It seems very draconian to have a very hard save v death every time you take more than 20 damage (even though you can buy a second life with fate points).

What you can do to make it a little less deadly is to set the DC for the saving throw to 5 + half damage taken, so the minimum DC becomes 15 instead of 20.

- thulsa

 

[Sutek]

Keep in mind that most goons in this game world are going to be (A) just that; lame-o goons, and (B) are probably going to be coming in droves.

Take into account the rules for multiple combatants and a 20 point MD value starts looking more like a life saver than a detriment to your party members. Secondly, as you point out yourself, Fate Points can "save thier life" and put them at Left For Dead rather than simply Dead.

At 10+(50% damage) as the save DC, this does seem pretty high at first, but since FORT save increases with experience levels, so does the abilty to survive nasty blows that would have been instantly deadly in the character's early career. This means that if a character has any kind of CON bonus, he can survive these kinds of blows even at low levels with a good FORT save, and then keep on fighting, shrugging them off even better as he levels up.

Where it is broken a bit is with tougher encouters, such as monsters. Basically, what I did as a house rule, was allow any monster/creature with an artificially high FORT save (like Ghouls for example) to add that to their own MD threshold. In other words, Ghouls have a FORT of +6, which is out of line for thier mere 13 CON. So, the MD value for a Ghoul would be 26. For an Earth elemental, same sort of thing: MD = 37.

I'd allow the same thing for PCs too, like if they took the feat Great Fortitude.

 

[argo]

I play it that a failed Massive Damage save takes the character to -1 HP (and dying) instead of dead. I did this not because I thought play was too deadly but because I wanted to give more opportunities to use the Die Hard feat, which is a cool feat but doesn't come up enough!

IME the Massive Damage rules are just fine. The constant threat of death is important for the genre and players still have their FP to fall back on.

Later.

 

[Sutek]

Good point about Die Hard, argo.

If you really think a fix is in order, Iorwerth, I'd just say keep it simple and raise the MD value to one you want to use. In D&D 3.5 it's 40. Try 30 and so how that works for you.

 

[Iorwerth]

Thank you for all the replies.

I have been thinking about my problem with massive damage saves, and I think it boils down to fate points, given the save is so diffiuclt. My problem is that fate points seem like a cop-out. Basically the rules say that you have second lives equal to your fate points. I can see the value of it, but, somehow, it seems to be a crass way of giving the players an edge.

I am also influenced by my players in this regard, who don't like fate/hero points. They want a level playing field when battling their foes and want to triumph through better skills, intelligence and dice rolling, rather than through the use of arbitrary fate points.

I am unsure what to do about it at the moment. I would like to run the rules as written, as that would be easier, but I am worried that fate points, acting as second lives, will not appeal to my players.

 

[Sutek]

Well, the Fate Point mechanic is similar to a system used in the Stargate:SG-1 role playing game, but that one uses dice.

PCs get 3 dice that can be used as either a roll boost or can be cashed in to influence events (like activating a threat to make it a Crit- you don't roll a second time, or die re-rolls), but not on the magickal scale that FP can in Conan. There are 4 tiers of availability, d4, d6, d8 and d10 that the players gain access to every sixth character level (not merely class level).

The GM gets 3 d12 + an additional die for each PC in the group. His work the same way.

Basically, these dice are awarded whenever a player does something that GM thinks is cool, but whenever one of the players gets one, the GM gets another d12 too. When a die is used (either rolled or cashed in), it is lost, but since cool, in-character deeds and role play can "win" more, using them is encouraged without breaking the basics of the D20 system wide open.

Does that sound better? It's still basically Fate Points, but there's a degree of randomness and one dice wouldn't be able to cash in to the degree that a FP can, but it offers a mechanic that can boost that FORT save by 1-4 in case the player doesn't think they can make it.

Besides, man...it's a threshhold of 20 damage, but the save is only 10+ half that damage. If I deal 24 points of damage, that's only a 24DC save, and even a first level character can still pass that by rolling a natural 20. Free 5% chance.

I like the "go to -1 HP" idea too, but with the bonuses for multiple opponents and the lethality of some creatures, it sure is nice to have the ability to lop off two or three heads or shoot an arrow into a lion's eye at 20 paces...

 

[argo]

Thank you for all the replies.

I have been thinking about my problem with massive damage saves, and I think it boils down to fate points, given the save is so diffiuclt. My problem is that fate points seem like a cop-out. Basically the rules say that you have second lives equal to your fate points. I can see the value of it, but, somehow, it seems to be a crass way of giving the players an edge.

Refrence this thread for another discussion on FP being used as "second lives".

To summarize my position; FP encourage the players to act like Big Damn Heroes and that is a Good Thing(TM).

I am also influenced by my players in this regard, who don't like fate/hero points. They want a level playing field when battling their foes and want to triumph through better skills, intelligence and dice rolling, rather than through the use of arbitrary fate points.

Let me assure you that, even with the liberal application of FP, the only way your players will truimph in this game is through skill, intelligence and luck...

... and having stones that hang down to their ankles. Tis a Conan game after all 8)

I am unsure what to do about it at the moment. I would like to run the rules as written, as that would be easier, but I am worried that fate points, acting as second lives, will not appeal to my players.

Let me give you an actual example of Left for Dead from my game last Saturday.

So the players are lost in the jungle at night being harried by "Demon Shadow Panthers" (not what the creatures are, but close enough). The Barbarian is in Crimson Mist mode, one PC has failed his terror save, two are laboring with Con damage, one is helpless on the ground due to paralisis posion and everybody is low on HP. However they are wearing the cats down so the monsters (which have Int) decide to retreat, this was only supposed to be a harrasing attack anyway. One grabs a PC in its jaws and drags him off to the north, the second flees to the south. The raging Barb chases the cat to the south while everybody folows the captured PC to the north to save him. They all leave the thief, who is paralized, behind on the trail.

Well, the cat that broke to the south gives the Barb the slip and comes back to the helpless thief. The PC is toast, he's worse than toast he is potted meat on toast, he's done. I torture the player for a bit discribing how he can't move, lying on the ground watching the driping fangs move closer and closer... good times 8)

So it is FP time. Now I could say "the beast sinks its fangs into your throat, spend a FP to not bleed to death". But why throw away a golden opportunity for plot advancement? :twisted: Instead I call the player into the back room. I tell him its gonna cost him 1 FP not to die (what, he's gonna say no? ) and tell him that as the yellow fangs close in on him the cat suddenly halts and twists its head to the side. The player, still paralized, can just see out of the corner of his eye a booted figure standing in the shadows holding a white staff with a crystal on the top. The cat seems to be listening to something though no words are spoken and then the beast reluctlently pulls back. I tell the player he is at 0 HP and blacks out.

So, who was the dude with the staff? A minor villan from another PC's background, the other PC is chasing this guy for revenge. Now, before this I had decided that the Staff Dude was allied with the group controling the cats however I had not decided how to work him into the plot, matter of fact I had not even decided for sure that he was present in the valley! But now the thief player gets a cool near-death experience and the other PC gets to trot out his background motivation and the whole party gets to wring their hands in fear over the strange new player in town. Even better, the PC's had suspected the guy who was secretly controling the cats of... being the guy who was controling the cats. But now they are second guessing their earlier assumptions and are all worried that there is a third faction at work.

Some nights it is very rewarding to be a GM :twisted:

So yea, Fate Points are a good game mechanic IMNSHO

Hope that helps.

 

[rgrove0172]

argo - I think your example illustrates the point perfectly (nice GMing by the way!)

The Fatepoint is an abstract mechanic that permits some of the action we have come to love and expect in the Conan stories to occur without the GM's prior planning.

As Im reading thorugh the rules and modules, getting ready to start my campaign Im already planning on expanding the uses of the Fate Point to allow the players even more leeway with the plot.

I think its a great element in the game - and more than makes up for the seemingly deadly nature of the massive damage save.

 

[Iorwerth]

Argo, thanks for your advice. I loved the sound of your game. Lets hope my players have as interesting a time as yours.

I think after listening to all the advice (greatfully recieved, by the way!) I will just play the rules as written. After all, I can always change them if I feel a need when I see how it all interacts.

It was also interesting to hear how important the terror rules are. When I read the rules I skimmed over them.

Thanks for all the replies. If any one has any useful tips for running a Conan campaign then I would be greatful as well, though I realise there is probably loads of tips hidden away in this forum anyway (if any one knows of a good thread you think I should read then please let me know)

I am really looking forward to starting - I have orderd all the Books in one go (it was payday and what the heck!) and so now have a mountain of reading to get through - happy days!!

 

[Trodax]

I play it that a failed Massive Damage save takes the character to -1 HP (and dying) instead of dead. I did this not because I thought play was too deadly but because I wanted to give more opportunities to use the Die Hard feat, which is a cool feat but doesn't come up enough!

Thats a nice idea which I might use myself. Die Hard is indeed cool!

I have orderd all the Books in one go (it was payday and what the heck!) and so now have a mountain of reading to get through - happy days!!

:shock: Damn! Good luck with the reading, and happy gaming!