Long Live ACTA!

[tneva82]

Lately one cannot but wonder why do some folk even play this game when it seems to cause just grief for them. Seems like more posts are for whining than for actually enjoying the game...Whines for every possible thing you can think of(hell. Even news of new B5 material brings it up!). And reading the forums one could come to following conclusions:

a) Game sucks
b) Mongoose is run by greedy idiots
c) JMS has suddenly become braindead vegetable who cannot write anything half-decent
d) ACTA is going to die.

Now part d is more or less what I'm going to address. Seems like people here think that ACTA is dying horrible because of Mongoose's actions. But here's small thought:

YOU folks decide wether game lives or dies!

Mongoose cannot kill the game regardless of what they do.
Games Workshop cannot kill the game regardless of what they do.
Any other company cannot kill the game regardless of what they do.

Only ones who have power to kill the game are YOU! YOU the fans. Fans are what make games live or die. THEY decide fate of the game. If you want ACTA to die then it dies. If you want ACTA to live then it lives. Doesn't really matter what Mongoose does. Hell they could even stop producing material(or models) for ACTA tomorrow and it would still come down to this: Do the fans want game to live or die?

Some folk have got the right idea around here. So Warlock should be war level rather than Armageddon? Some folks have instantly stated they will use SFOS stats for it and keep it as war. Good move for them! If that fits them then go ahead. Are we lemmings or gamers? Lemmings need everything to be stamped 100% official but gamers can simply nudge things around. So your favourite ship got a shaft in update? There was perfectly fine and balanced version before? Just talk to folks you play with. 99% times they are reasonable and let you use the balanced version. Simple problem solved.

Before somebody comes and shouts "whatabout tournaments!" let me ask a question. How big % of your games are represented by games where you absolutly cannot have gentlemens agreement like above? I would wager very small partion for most folks.

And whatabout more serious problems? What if Mongoose foobars 2nd edition completely and rules are suddenly unplayable? Well let's look at comparable event...Epic 40k...Rules were foobar as far as most of epic fans were concerned and the game...Well just flopped. What did epic fans do? Did they complain and let game die? Nope. They made ruleset of their own(called netepic). Say something about getting rid of officialness...That ruleset has been tweaked and tweaked over the years so that it's very possibly most balanced version of epic ever produced. Epic Armageddon's rules are similary at the hands of gamers rather than GW.

Epic has suffered far worse(including 3, or is it 4th now, attempts to kill the game by GW...) than ACTA and yet game is alive. Take heart from that example and refuse to let the ACTA die. Long live ACTA!

 

[Locutus9956]

Here here. But I would just add that just because we can fix the game with houserules is no reason for mongoose not to make those rules official

Oh and I hate to say it but round my way ACTA IS dying despite my best efforts, the other people at my local club just arent playing it.

I and a few loyal fans still play but I've only got 3 players (myself included for our latest campaign)

 

[Alexb83]

I think the important thing to remember is that there is no such thing as a perfect miniature wargame... at least none that I've ever found.

There are however good ones and enjoyable ones - I find ACTA is both. But it certainly isn't perfect, and the more I play it the more certain things stand out and niggle, and the more I want to see them resolved to improve the game. The core rules of ACTA are solid - sometimes the rules are poorly worded to cover every possible situation, but that is quickly sorted out. What everyone picks up as the main issues are the ships (rules).

It's a credit to Mongoose that they actually provide this forum, let us talk about the issues we have with the games and often address them directly.

It's more than certain other large game companies would (and do) offer, and it's one of the reasons I'd rather play Mongoose games, and that my 40k and similar sit on the shelf unused, and that I drive all over the south end of the nation just to play

 

[thePirv]

Actually, a games company can kill a game more or less by not supporting it or by putting out content that the fans don't like.
If fans aren't happy with a game, they will stop playing it.
Yes, it's possible to play on just using SFoS stats and rules, but the problem is that if everyone starts doing this, future expansions won't sell in the numbers they have been, which will make the company very hesitant to put out any more expansions to the game.

Once a game isn't being supported by a company, it s very hard to get new people interested, and more and more people who have been playing the game for a while will drift off to fresher systems that are being supported.

Similarly, if the new materials being published by a company are only meeting with approval from about 50% of the playerbase, lots of players will simply lose interest and drift off to other games.

Yes, some fans may continue to play under their own homebrew rulesets, but very few new players will come to the game and again the game will die.

Thus, it is TOTALLY possible for a company to kill a game.

 

[Alexb83]

Well, it's hard to please everyone. With the sheer number of fleets in ACTA already, balance is an elusive thing. Then you start adding more and more...

Unfortunately, Mongoose seem to have a bit of GW-esque 'we must add more fleets and models to keep folks happy' mania, with the proposed new psi-corps, gaim etc. etc.

I think most of the established game franchises could stand to stop, breathe, rebuild their games systems and recheck the balances of existing ships into a robust system, and then add new fleets/ships after a suitable playtesting period for each. This seems to be the way that 2nd Ed ACTA is going - although by adding new ships and rejigging every existing ship in ACTA simultaneously, I think they may be escalating the game into the realms of the 12AD beams and 20AD broadsides that I've heard bantered around - which isn't appealing to me.

40k had the same problem - constantly adding new armies without redressing the balance between the old ones - stacking rules upon old rules with exceptions and derogations, making every new army more powerful than the last. It just got messy, and became no fun.

 

[DrSeltsam]

I think that there is a difference between whining and a valid complaint.
If someone just wants more-of-everthing-for-my-fleet/ship im totally with you. But if a complaint is made with examples a discussion about this should be allowed.

Alexb83 mentioned that no game is perfect and he is totally correct with this !

There are however good ones and enjoyable ones - I find ACTA is both. But it certainly isn't perfect, and the more I play it the more certain things stand out and niggle, and the more I want to see them resolved to improve the game.

... is a wonderful way to describe the current situation. Thank you for this !

There are many people in this forum that want to discuss productiv about possible improvements for ACtA to keep this game living and growing ! If they would not care about the game they would not be around ...

In my area we are currently 3 active players and we try to get more players into ACtA but this is difficult. Many people in my area are more into "space-fleet-action" than "B5-fluff-background" ...

The addition of more fleets ( in v2 ) while some are woth a overhaul irritates ... but im really looking forward to v2 and expect the best because we don't know what else is done by the people involved to balance and improve the game !

 

[DrSeltsam]

Well, it's hard to please everyone. With the sheer number of fleets in ACTA already, balance is an elusive thing. Then you start adding more and more...

Unfortunately, Mongoose seem to have a bit of GW-esque 'we must add more fleets and models to keep folks happy' mania, with the proposed new psi-corps, gaim etc. etc.

I think most of the established game franchises could stand to stop, breathe, rebuild their games systems and recheck the balances of existing ships into a robust system, and then add new fleets/ships after a suitable playtesting period for each. This seems to be the way that 2nd Ed ACTA is going - although by adding new ships and rejigging every existing ship in ACTA simultaneously, I think they may be escalating the game into the realms of the 12AD beams and 20AD broadsides that I've heard bantered around - which isn't appealing to me.

40k had the same problem - constantly adding new armies without redressing the balance between the old ones - stacking rules upon old rules with exceptions and derogations, making every new army more powerful than the last. It just got messy, and became no fun.

Have to 2nd this !

Just push out new things that are bigger / more weapons / more damage&crew is not going to get new players into the game and keep active players with the game. 40k is the best ( or better worst :wink: ) example for this. The game totally sucks now and there is no longer a active gaming community in my area for it.

 

[Hans Olo]

That's true the fan base can keep playing with whatever rules they like, but they have a hard time to get new players interested in a Game that is no longer under support of a company.
So if a companies chases of the fans or makes them ignore the new supplements because they are crap, well then I would assume its over. ( Only a very strong and established game with 100.000ends of fans or more is able to survive this, like Classic Battletech)

No one wants to kill ActA but there are certain things going wrong, we offer our thoughts and help to keep things right!

 

[Alexb83]

The escalation issue in terms of ship power seems to be a bit of a problem - there are certain ships atm which are 'underpowered' for their PL. There are others that are 'overpowered'. Some want to address this by point-costing ships to show the difference in power. Personally I would rather rebalance the ships to make the PLs a (more) level playing field.

I recall in a post a while back I said that having underpowered ships was just as bad as having overpowered ones, whilst everyone was saying that overpowered ships ruin the game far more since they can be exploited. But then, isn't it all relative?

When it comes to fixing ships like these (the overpowered ones) the trick is to downgrade them to match everything else, not to upgrade everything else in the game to match them. You just get into a spiral of escalation, and before you know it you have 100 ancillary rules trying desperately to glue the whole messy system together in some semblance of balance.

atm ACTA is a solid game - the issues which everyone brings up are in the ship balances, not in an underabundance of ships or a bad ruleset.

 

[DrSeltsam]

Im on your side Alexb83 with this !

The rules for ACtA are fine - the only issue is the underpowered / overpowered ship. I thing i mentioned in the discussion about point-vs.-PL discussion that im fine with the PL system - if it keeps the balance between the different fleets. I still think that a point system partitions more finely but that's not part of this topice here .... 8)

The under- and overpowered ship have to be watched and overhauled to keep the system ( regarding the PL level ) balanced.
Don't change the things that are running fine - only correct that thing that are wrong ...

 

[Hans Olo]

Im on your side Alexb83 with this !

The rules for ACtA are fine - the only issue is the underpowered / overpowered ship. I thing i mentioned in the discussion about point-vs.-PL discussion that im fine with the PL system - if it keeps the balance between the different fleets. I still think that a point system partitions more finely but that's not part of this topice here .... 8)

The under- and overpowered ship have to be watched and overhauled to keep the system ( regarding the PL level ) balanced.
Don't change the things that are running fine - only correct that thing that are wrong ...

How true brother
Ok this can be closed now the final truth has already been spoken!

 

[tneva82]

Here here. But I would just add that just because we can fix the game with houserules is no reason for mongoose not to make those rules official

True. However it shouldn't stop us from fixing problems in our playing groups while waiting for fixes in official rule.

 

[tneva82]

Actually, a games company can kill a game more or less by not supporting it or by putting out content that the fans don't like.

Epic has survived because of it's fans despite GW deliberatly having tried to kill 3 or 4 times it already. So no they cannot if fans refuse to let game die.

 

[thePirv]

Actually, a games company can kill a game more or less by not supporting it or by putting out content that the fans don't like.

Epic has survived because of it's fans despite GW deliberatly having tried to kill 3 or 4 times it already. So no they cannot if fans refuse to let game die.

Just because Epic continues to survive, does not mean that a game can't be killed by its' parent company. It's difficult to totally destroy a game so that nobody is playing it, but once a lot of players leave a game and the company stops to support it, the game only has a limited shelf life before the player base dies out.
Epic is still somewhat supported by GW in that it is still possible to get minis and parts from GW, even if new rules and minis are not being produced. But Epic is a dying game in that there are more players leaving it than new blood coming in.

 

[Lord David the Denied]

It's human nature to complain about things we don't like. There are things in this game that people don't like, a lot of things for some people, and so there are complaints. Posting yet another "I'm sick of the moaning" threads won't change anything, and just adds to an atmosphere of bitching and back-biting.

People are posting here because they play ACtA. If the game was dead, this forum would be too.

 

[DrSeltsam]

Actually, a games company can kill a game more or less by not supporting it or by putting out content that the fans don't like.

Epic has survived because of it's fans despite GW deliberatly having tried to kill 3 or 4 times it already. So no they cannot if fans refuse to let game die.

Just because Epic continues to survive, does not mean that a game can't be killed by its' parent company. It's difficult to totally destroy a game so that nobody is playing it, but once a lot of players leave a game and the company stops to support it, the game only has a limited shelf life before the player base dies out.
Epic is still somewhat supported by GW in that it is still possible to get minis and parts from GW, even if new rules and minis are not being produced. But Epic is a dying game in that there are more players leaving it than new blood coming in.

I would say that Epic is more dead than alive ... maybe undead after all :?:

1.) only get minis through web ordering
2.) not all possible armies official supported
3.) interesting price policy ( WHAT should i pay for this ? )
4.) no clear future development

however ... GW is the best example how you should not support any game 8)

GW decided that it can make more profit with other game systems and that's fine for the company but bad for the player community ( still mourn for Man O'War )

 

[Silvereye]

( still mourn for Man O'War )

Now that was a good fun game, so cruely cut down. I only managed to collect a dwarf fleet, and it sits in my cupboard looking very lonely.

 

[DrSeltsam]

Still have a huge Chaos fleet, basic box, Plague Sea and Sea of Blood somewhere here lying around ...

Wasn't able to lay my hands on a Dark Elf Black Arc ... what a shame

For all the asking "What are they talking about ?"
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/137083
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/144941
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/game/2516

 

[Tredrick]

I am surprised Man o' War was never added to the revival carousel. About the only game GW seems really interested in bringing back on a regular basis is Blood Bowl.

The problem is, companies do need to continue to sell a stream of figures to generate revenue. GW has thought of their specialist games as sudden sources of short term revenue while Warhammer and 40k are the long term continuing streams. They were foolish enough to think that Lord of the Rings would be one too.

ACTA, like any game, will need new miniatures to survive as a profitable entity. The trick is to constantly make new ships/fleets while avoiding the tendency to make the new stuff more powerful/useful than the old to push it.

 

[tneva82]

Just because Epic continues to survive,

And why does Epic survive? Because the fans refuse to let it die.

If companies could kill games epic would be dead 3-4 times already.

Epic is still somewhat supported by GW in that it is still possible to get minis and parts from GW

Yup. Whatabout the 2-3(memory fails) where they stopped support 100%. No new models, not even old models on sale.

And no epic is not dying ATM.