Life and History of 3I and Traveller

[Reynard]

Moving the side issue from the other thread to here. Let there peace in gold.
"3I did not exist before the Traveller rules."

"Actually it did for several years. The board game Imperium, set in the 3I, predates Traveller."

I checked my copy of Imperium and the Classic Traveller. You might be right, however, both are marked as published in 1977. I always thought Imperium was a board game related to Traveller the RPG either written as an extension similar the Mayday and Snapshot or written concurrently with the concept of the Imperium as part of Traveller. My 1977 copy of the boxed set doesn't mention the 3I universe in Ship descriptions, trade and commerce, world design thought there is a sentence in the 1978 Mercenary "Traveller assumes a remote centralized government referred to in this volume as the Imperium...". Obviously there is definitely a connection but did Imperium pre-date the RPG? Even if the board game and the RPG were written with the 3I universe in mind, does it invalidate the game as an RPG that can be played as a non-3I?

Every RPG with scifi elements has specific designs for character creation. Some also have world and/or ship, vehicle and equipment design while other have fully created items. Most of the time these are plugged into the house universe. Some, like GURPS, Hero system or the d20 OGL had to heavily modify all the rules to make it fit other campaign systems not related to the original mechanics they were based on. Mongoose does that to several non-3I games. Why is Traveller being faulted for what all other scifi RPGs are doing? What is so wrong with a stable and long running house universe that has outlived other RPGs?

 

[dragoner]

Imperium is Vilani vs Terrans, but it is "in 'verse" as it were.

 

[F33D]

The original Traveller rules were written by Marc WITH the 3I in mind as the setting to be developed for the product line.

 

[Reynard]

I wish I had any of Marc's earliest interviews concerning the development of the game system for the whys behind it such as why Traveller rather than maybe The Third Imperium. Why are the references relatively separate. Did he plan to have the game also a stand alone for non-Imperial stories and campaigns?

It seemed the published adventures solidified a lot of the 3I concept. At least I remember it that way when I began the game back in the late 70s but I was also under the impression Traveller was very much geared for home grown stories. Not every scifi RPG has, if at all, such a diverse yet general universe generation system which seems to encourage building new universes from the ground up. The adventure books suggested they can be put in any campaign. Was it the intent to have a house game but also encourage home campaigns?

 

[dragoner]

He said he made it generic, then people said they wanted a setting, if one looks at the scans of original materials, it does look a lot like ref's notes. GW (of 40k fame) did the first adventures, so that solidified it probably.

There is an interview where he talks about it out there someplace.

 

[F33D]

He said he made it generic,

Except he didn't actually. Hence built in SS in the mold of nobility. Generic wouldn't have that as a primary attribute.

It would be like if I created a game and your characters were either Patricians, plebeians or slaves and I said that it was "settingless". Only to roll out "the setting" a year later and it was Romanesque... :lol:

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

Moving the side issue from the other thread to here. Let there peace in gold.
"3I did not exist before the Traveller rules."

"Actually it did for several years. The board game Imperium, set in the 3I, predates Traveller."

I checked my copy of Imperium and the Classic Traveller. You might be right, however, both are marked as published in 1977. I always thought Imperium was a board game related to Traveller the RPG either written as an extension similar the Mayday and Snapshot or written concurrently with the concept of the Imperium as part of Traveller.

Later editions of Imperium began including printings of Traveller's history about the Imperiums, once a setting was established by GDW.

 

[Reynard]

Even back in the beginning when I bought the original game the concept of nobility was very vague. There's a mention in the description for Social Standing saying it's social class and social level then a mention of hereditary titles then refers to Book 3 for more information which I can't find. Yeah, originally the nobility angle wasn't very important and we used Social Standing as a modifier for interaction check. It was your personal status and the titles had little impact or meaning.

Without the later material for the concepts and details for the Imperium, the world generation system made nobility meaningless for all the worlds without governments types that normally support noble classes. Even after a growing plethora of Third Imperium information, we still saw little actual involvement of nobility in the game except as background and maybe plot device so Social Standing still was merely the social interaction characteristic. On that level along with the ability to create worlds and star maps for your own campaign, Traveller isn't actually joined at the Social Standing hip with 3I. A laser rifle, starship or an air/raft aren't Imperial specific.

As one more note, there are many major empires in the 3I universe that do not use a hereditary central government making class based Social Standing moot. The game actually renames SS as Charisma for the Vargr yet it's still a social interaction skill. I'm sure the Solomani would take offense with an Imperial social standing reference. The characteristic is more versatile than some imagine as is the game.

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

Even back in the beginning when I bought the original game the concept of nobility was very vague. There's a mention in the description for Social Standing saying it's social class and social level then a mention of hereditary titles then refers to Book 3 for more information which I can't find. Yeah, originally the nobility angle wasn't very important and we used Social Standing as a modifier for interaction check. It was your personal status and the titles had little impact or meaning.

Without the later material for the concepts and details for the Imperium, the world generation system made nobility meaningless for all the worlds without governments types that normally support noble classes. Even after a growing plethora of Third Imperium information, we still saw little actual involvement of nobility in the game except as background and maybe plot device so Social Standing still was merely the social interaction characteristic. On that level along with the ability to create worlds and star maps for your own campaign, Traveller isn't actually joined at the Social Standing hip with 3I. A laser rifle, starship or an air/raft aren't Imperial specific.

As one more note, there are many major empires in the 3I universe that do not use a hereditary central government making class based Social Standing moot. The game actually renames SS as Charisma for the Vargr yet it's still a social interaction skill. I'm sure the Solomani would take offense with an Imperial social standing reference. The characteristic is more versatile than some imagine as is the game.

I thought at this point I'll include the United States approximations to Nobles that actually have power

President of the United States : Emperor
Governor of a State or a United States Senator : Duke
County Executive or a State Legislator: Count
Mayor of a city or town or a County Legislator: Baron
Town or city Legislators, or an officer in the military : Knight

How does that work?
Of course in a democratic republic such as the United States, one's Social standing depends on the outcome of the last election, if you lose the last election, your social standing drops to below the level of Nobility, but of course if you are an ex-president, your social standing is just below that of nobility. So if you substituted a representative Republic for the Imperium, that is what you would get. If you wanted to increase your social standing, you'd have to run for a higher level of public office and win the election.

 

[Condottiere]

GURPS represents this better, in terms of hard and soft power to influence events.

As a mafia don, you have actual power over a criminal organization, may wield real power behind the scenes in your neighbourhood, bought the police department and influence local politicians and businessmen.

But that cuts no ice with a national organized crime police task force, but having never been convicted of an actual crime, being a visually generous contributor to charities, and having married the daughter of a prominent national politician, your social standing may be higher than it should be.

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

GURPS represents this better, in terms of hard and soft power to influence events.

As a mafia don, you have actual power over a criminal organization, may wield real power behind the scenes in your neighbourhood, bought the police department and influence local politicians and businessmen.

But that cuts no ice with a national organized crime police task force, but having never been convicted of an actual crime, being a visually generous contributor to charities, and having married the daughter of a prominent national politician, your social standing may be higher than it should be.

But your social standing can move up and down rather swiftly, such as when the prominent national politicians who's daughter your married, loses his election be cause his opponent pointed out his mafia connections, and the economy isn't doing well, the public is mad so your father in law gets voted out of office and your social status precipitously drops. in feudal systems, social status is more fixed, but wars can change that too, if they go badly for your side. There are limits to power, and even a King or an Emperor can lose his power of social status if the public is sufficiently fed up with him. Witness Czar Nicolas II and what happened to him and his family during the Russian Revolutions.

 

[F33D]

President of the United States : Emperor
Governor of a State or a United States Senator : Duke
County Executive or a State Legislator: Count
Mayor of a city or town or a County Legislator: Baron
Town or city Legislators, or an officer in the military : Knight

How does that work?

It doesn't unless one is completely uneducated.

 

[Reynard]

As much as I love to often equate today's politicians and business people as royalty and nobility respectively, there's still a world of difference compared to the noble hierarchy of the Imperial central government that makes social class very obvious. I doubt the majority of people under Participating or Representative democracies feel comfortable with an obvious strict class system. I'm sure those world governments either pay lip service and go about their business or have people in positions of power that undermine their world for the benefit of an outside influence. Social Status in these instances needs to be flexible for all government types and have higher scores represent power in different forms such as Dukes, vice-presidents, military leader, upper management or even renown civic leaders. If you were to have a campaign not featuring a hierarchy governing body and removed all those references to title, Social Standing is still a viable as the interaction trait. Traveller can run without being 3I.

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

President of the United States : Emperor
Governor of a State or a United States Senator : Duke
County Executive or a State Legislator: Count
Mayor of a city or town or a County Legislator: Baron
Town or city Legislators, or an officer in the military : Knight

How does that work?

It doesn't unless one is completely uneducated.

Okay if you used a Traveller setting with a Republic instead of an Imperium, and there is no recognized noble class, what does Social Standing stand for? Does a governor of a state have more clout than the average citizen? I think he does, for as long as he is governor, don't you think?

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

As much as I love to often equate today's politicians and business people as royalty and nobility respectively, there's still a world of difference compared to the noble hierarchy of the Imperial central government that makes social class very obvious. I doubt the majority of people under Participating or Representative democracies feel comfortable with an obvious strict class system. I'm sure those world governments either pay lip service and go about their business or have people in positions of power that undermine their world for the benefit of an outside influence. Social Status in these instances needs to be flexible for all government types and have higher scores represent power in different forms such as Dukes, vice-presidents, military leader, upper management or even renown civic leaders. If you were to have a campaign not featuring a hierarchy governing body and removed all those references to title, Social Standing is still a viable as the interaction trait. Traveller can run without being 3I.

The main difference between a Republic and the Imperium is that in a Republic, the Title comes with the elective office and goes away when the politicians is no longer in that elective office. A daughter of a Governor has a special status for as long as her daddy is governor, but once he retires or is thrown out of office, then that special status goes away.

 

[F33D]

Okay if you used a Traveller setting with a Republic instead of an Imperium,

Off topic. The premise (false of course) is that the Trav rules did NOT come with a specific setting in mind.

 

[Condottiere]

Human societies have castes and classes, it just depends on what form they take, and how much social mobility and interaction is allowed.

 

[Reynard]

"Off topic. The premise (false of course) is that the Trav rules did NOT come with a specific setting in mind."

Actually his example shows Traveller does deal with more than an all inclusive government and how the SS stat is not just about nobles whether or not the 3I system highlights a hierarchy. Republic exists in the game so the game need to take that POV into consideration.

 

[F33D]

"

Actually his example

was off topic. It was attempt to obfuscate. The game was created to have PC's who exist in a setting where it was an large empire ruled via nobility. Only the blind or the intellectually dishonest keep ignoring its char gen system.

 

[Reynard]

Really?! The system and game mechanics are absolutely useless for anything but 3I? I did not realize it. Such a shame.