Kharamun Desert

[Hervé]

Hi to you all Hyborian Scholars.
I have a problem with contradictory information about the Kharamun Desert
RoK has the following entry:

The Eastern Desert is a vast desert that gives way to steppes in the north and the Kharamun Desert in the South.

But when you look on the map, Kharamun is located to the north of the Eastern Desert. What's the real location of the place? Most of the non MGP maps I have seen place it to the south of the Eastern Desert, but I'd like to be sure.

There are also those mysterious "Haunted Pyramids" that appear on the map but that are not mentioned in any book. It seems of course a wonderful location to place Thulsa's wonderful Mesopotamia setting, but I'd like to know if there's any "official" information on this place. (the book from Necromancer Games has a really strong "Howardian" feeling and the campaign presented is very good, although it needs a bit of reworking to get rid of some of the annoying AD&D stuff, go to Thulsa's site for more information).

By the way, does anyone know where I could find information about Old Stygia, Acheron and ancient Shemite history? I was waiting for "Hyborian Empires", but with the current Conan Line cancelled and the distant release of the 2nd edition, I guess my wait is going to be a long one...

Thanks in advance...

 

[Faraer]

The Kharamun is mentioned once in Howard's Conan stories, in "The Man-Eaters of Zamboula". It's ambiguous, but may be intended as the name of the "eastern desert", also mentioned in the story in one of Howard's few uses of the term. He usually refers to "the southern desert", uncapitalized, which may or may not be the same as the eastern desert.

The phrase "haunted pyramids" (again, no caps) is from "The God in the Bowl" and they're also mentioned in "The Phoenix on the Sword".

For the old history of Acheron and Stygia, see Dale Rippke's essays and the sources he refers to, such as The Hour of the Dragon.

 

[Evil_Trevor]

Examining the map I have from the moongose downloads page, Arenjun is deep in the Kenzankian mountains which are part of Turan, and Stygia is a lush forest, moongose maps, nuff said.

 

[Faraer]

Does anyone have further thoughts here? On maps, the interpretation of Howard, influence of the pastiches, etc.

For myself, I don't like the artificial concretization that Creeping Capitalization is an instance of. It's common in RPGs -- tendencies and subtleties turned into factions and simplified philosophies, like Vampire's clans (and perhaps most ridiculously, poseurs and artistes factions!) and Planescape's factions.

 

[tarkhan bey]

I have always regarded the Kharamun desert to be the region of the eastern desert which was within the Stygian sphere of influence and centred on the city of Zamboula. The name Kharamun just reeks of Stygia to me and I therefore place it to the east of the Styx and north of the Ilbars mountains.
I have also considered the fact that the whole eastern desert is actually the Kharamun and that the name"Eastern Desert" is actually only used by those who dwell to the west of it.

 

[Darkstorm]

Tarkhan Bey is correct. The Eastern Desert's name is almost certainly Shemitish in origin, given the context (western meadowlands, eastern wastelands) that it's part of Shem.

The Kharamun Desert is essentially the southern reaches of the greater Eastern Desert, and lies between the River Styx and the nation of Iranistan. Zamboula is the largest city in this region.

The name Kharamun is most likely the Iranistani name of the desert, though, since the the name is basically Persian. The fictional desert's name derives from the Karakum Desert that lies directly to the north of ancient eastern Persia (northeast of the province of Hyrcania, in fact).

I personally have no use for the pastiche works at all...

 

[Faraer]

I knew you must have considered this, Dale. I mentioned the pastiches because they, along with the older maps on which the Mongoose map is based, are part of the textual history that the formalized 'Eastern Desert' comes out of, along with many other ideas about the geography of this region.

 

[tarkhan bey]

Dale, I have been looking at what you have said on my thoughts on the Eastern desert and am mightily pleased that you are in agreement with me over the origin of the name.
I can also see where the Kara Kum could be used as a naming reference but I would have imagined that this would have lay to the east of Vilayet on the trade route to Khitai.
I took Kharamun to be the name of the desert now as it is called by its Turanian overlords and its mongrel populace. A bastardisation, perhaps of the Stygian name for the region. It may have been something like Ka ar amon.
I dont have and cant quote any factual reference to anything similar,It is simply how it feels to me.
I was also thinking on the city of Zamboula. Perhaps the elite Stygian nobility of the place still refer to it in the name it had under their rule. Despite the fact the Nafertiri does not allude to this I still think it is resonable.
What say you?

 

[Darkstorm]

Howard is renown for using names in places that are nowhere near their actual location in real life (Kush, for example, is on the opposite side of the continent from historical Cush), so I don't see how his naming of the Kharmun after the Karakum Desert would need place it in east of the Vilayet. Iranistan, for example, lies mostly in present-day Arabia. There is very little of it in present-day Iran. The Karakum is a desert on the Persian frontier and Howard could merely have been echoing the relationship by placing the Kharamun on the Iranistani frontier.

That being said, however, Howard used a similar name in his short story, The Fire of Asshurbanipal placing a lost city named Kara-Sher in the Arabian Desert. Of course, Kara-Sher is Turkic for "The Black City", so Howard probably intended the name Kharamun to be of Turanian (Turkic) origin. I don't think it's a bastardization of a Stygian name, since the name actually seems to have some meaning (perhaps it's Turanian for the Black Wastes or the Desert of Black Sands).

I agree that Zamboula is the city's Turanian name and that it lost its Stygian name when it was conquered, since the name Zamboula was derived from the Turkish city of Istanbul.

My two-bits, anyway...

 

[tarkhan bey]

I can certainly accept that as feasible. You and Vincent certainly know your stuff and I generally would agree with everything you both say.
I stilll think,however ,that there is some mileage in my thinking that the Kharamun may be of Stygian origin.
I did a little research today and came up with the following.
Kha-means"to arise",Ra and Amun(Amen and Amon) are names that refer to the sun gods of ancient Egypt. It appears that Amun(Amen/Amon) came to represent the hidden aspect of the sun ie; nighttime where Ra became the sun god of daylight hours.
I reckon then that it is not unreasonable to assume that the original name of Zamboula as named by its Stygian founders was Kha Ra Amon which could then be roughly translated into a place where the hidden aspect of the sun god arises to become the daylight aspect. A fairly good name for the easternmost outpost of the Stygian empire I thought.
I also take it that the desert was named simply for the city which would have been ,probably,its only settlement of note.This has in turn been mispelt and mispronounced continually under the Turanian heel until the bastardised version of the name has become Kharamun and only the Stygian nobility remember the city's true name.
What do you think?

 

[Hervé]

I 'll go for Tarkhan Bey explanation wich seems quite reasonable to me.
I'm currently looking for ancient Shemite history, how they fled their Stygian masters (I think I will do something reminding the jewish exode from Egypt) as well as information on Ancient Stygia and Acheron.
Anyway thanks to everyone for taking time to answer my questions. With the Conan line currently down, I hope the activity on this forum won't decrease too much.
See you soon Hyborian maniacs!

 

[The King]

I just saw on a German (colour) map that it lays directly south of Zamboula. In fact it is bordered on the North by a hilly ground just North of that city and by Fort Zheman on the east.

 

[tarkhan bey]

Darkstorm,if you are still watching developments on this thread I would very much like to hear your thoughts on this.
Today, I watched a really old movie called The Four Feathers. It was about Kitchener's campaign against the Mahdist forces in the Sudan.
It suddenly occurred to me. Is Zamboula actually meant to be Howard's version of Khartoum?
Take Khartoum,founded by the Egyptians in the Sudan it became a major centre for trade which eventually came to be ruled by the British Empire.
Take Zamboula,founded by the Stygians in the Kharamun it too becomes a major trade centre until it too falls under the sway of Imperial Turan.
What do you think?

 

[Darkstorm]

While I personally think your Egyptian translation of Kharamun is pretty neat, I'm nearly 100% positive that Howard didn't intend for it to be taken in that manner. You are really overthinking this thing.

In nearly every instance I can recall, Howard used the name of an existing historical place and slightly changed it's name in order to bring a feel of authenticity and familiarity to his fictional world.

The reason that I don't believe that Kharamun is Stygian for "Sunrise Desert" (essentially) is that using Howard's method of determining names, a Stygian name for the desert would have to be based on an actual, recognizable Egyptian place-name.

For instance, if Howard decided to use the Egyptian name "Karnak" for his Stygian desert and then decided to occult the name with a Turanian (Turkic) rename, he might have changed it to "Khara-nak". Speak the name aloud and you can see that it is still recognizable as the former name. In essence, this is what you suggested that Howard did; I'm just showing how Howard would have gone about it. Your Stygian name is not recognizable as an Egyptian placename, so I'm on pretty firm ground stating that Howard wouldn't have approached it that way.

I'm pretty much of the opinion that Howard named the Kharamun Desert after the historical Karakum Desert and just slightly changed the name, as he was wont to do. The only question in my mind is whether the changed final syllable was an unintentional (yet serendipitous) nod toward the Stygian "amun", or whether he intentionally changed it to that in order to pay homage to the ghost of a Stygian past. While I wouldn't put it past him to make a wordplay out of the name, I must confess that I don't recall him ever making a placename out of two different languages before.

Actually, if you want to find Khartoum in Hyboria, its closest analogy would be the Stygian border city of Sukhmet. Howard wrote that the city was there to protect the Stygians (Egyptians) from the hostile black races on its southern border.

Zamboula is a pretty thinly disguised copy of its namesake Istanbul. The historical city was originally Byzantium (later Constantinople), the easternmost major city of the Roman Empire. Constantinople was eventually captured by nominally Turkish forces and was renamed Istanbul, in much the same way that the easternmost major city of the Stygian Empire was captured by Turanian forces and renamed Zamboula.

 

[The King]

Zamboula is a pretty thinly disguised copy of its namesake Istanbul. The historical city was originally Byzantium (later Constantinople), the easternmost major city of the Roman Empire. Constantinople was eventually captured by nominally Turkish forces and was renamed Istanbul, in much the same way that the easternmost major city of the Stygian Empire was captured by Turanian forces and renamed Zamboula.

The city is called Stanbul (without I) in Greek and in Turkish, which originates from the Greek "Eis tin holin" which means "in the city".

But it doesn't matter as it will probably destroyed in an earthquake somewhat soon.

 

[tarkhan bey]

I myself have always considered Aghrapur to be the Constantinople of the Hyborian age,the capital of a burgeoning empire,not built by its current owners but conquered from its previous ones.
According to Vincent Darlage in the road of kings book, Aghrapur was previously a Zamorian city. In his recent piece in Signs and Portents he repeats this assertation. What are your thoughts on this?Is Vincent using some artistic license here or do REH's writings support this?
I personally like that train of thought as I am assuming that Howards Turanian's are his fictional representation of the Ottoman Turks. I am also, therefore assuming that it is feasible to compare his Zamorians with the Byzantines given the apparent opinion of his crusader protagonist towards them in his Outremer tale"Lion of Tiberias".
This could then be translated into the general distrust of all things Zamorian by Hyborians, politics and religion being the main things.
I think I may be starting to wibble a bit now. :?
What I am getting at is that if we accept Vincents assertation, then what we have is an Empire crumbling from within and without.It faces the might of a burgeoning new empire from the east that bears more than a passing resemblance to the sons of Othman. It has no reliable allies from the west as they view, with suspicion, its method of government and regard its religious faith as heretical and strange.
This then is my argument that Aghrapur is a better candidate for Istanbul than Zamboula despite the obvious similarities in the names.
Sukhmet as Khartoum, I can definately see how that could work though I think I still prefer Zamboula.

 

[Darkstorm]

Vincent Darlage is using artistic license about Aghrapur being a formerly Zamorian city. There is nothing in Howard's writings to back that claim up. It's possible that he got it from a pastiche source, but I wouldn't know which one.

Howard's essay "The Hyborian Age" details just how wrong that view is. He describes the Hyrkanian invasion of the lands between the Vilayet and Zamora as follows: "Through the centuries they have pushed steadily westward, and now a tribe skirts the southern end of the great inland sea - Vilayet - and establishes the kingdom of Turan on the southwestern shore. Between the inland sea and the eastern borders of the native kingdoms lie vast expanses of steppes and in the extreme north and extreme south, deserts. The non-Hyrkanian dwellers of those territories are scattered and pastoral, unclassified in the north, Shemitish in the south, aboriginal, with a thin strain of Hyborian blood from wandering conquerors."

The inhabitants of those lands are not city-building Zamorians, they are scattered aboriginal farmers. Vince isn't on the same page as Howard on this topic.

 

[tarkhan bey]

OK, having returned to and reread the Hyborian age essay I think that Vincent may be mistaken about the origins of Aghrapur. I still think,however,that as the capital city of the Turanian Empire and a port into the bargain that it is a more likely candidate for Constantinople.
I still just dont feel that this was REH's intention for our perception of Zamboula.It seems too remote,the Turanian influence too low key to represent a city of that much historical significance.

 

[The King]

The inhabitants of those lands are not city-building Zamorians, they are scattered aboriginal farmers. Vince isn't on the same page as Howard on this topic.

Don't you think Aghrapur is the pendant of Samarkand?

 

[ScottOden]

Don't you think Aghrapur is the pendant of Samarkand?

I've always thought Aghrapur was meant to be Baghdad or Cairo, albeit with the gloss and glitter of an Arabian Nights fantasy.