Just started making my first sub-sector and...

[PoppySeed45]

...it's just awesome.

Seriously. Using all of the options (temperature, factions, customs), and the ideas it gives me are just crazy and fun. Example (just my interpretation of course; I'm sure some of you will have come up with something different):

Galliant
Floating cities over a burning world. Currently, the government is being pressured by a fanatic religious movement (Zen Sunni) starting to gain converts, and an Air Marshal who is popular with the military, and somewhat famous, but not yet so much with the people. Fashion sense, however, dictates all - it's rumored the Zen Sunnis are gaining converts thanks to their sense of dramatic style!
Size – 8 (1g)
Atmosphere – 13 (High Density; floating habitats needed)
Temperature – 13 (Roasting 81 degrees and up)
Hydrographic – 9 (86%-95%)
Population – A (tens of billions)
Government – 9 (Impersonal Bureaucracy)
Factions – 2 (1 –Non-Charismatic leader (fringe), 2 –Religious Dictatorship (minor))
Culture – Fashion: Proper high fashion necessary.
Law Level – 13 (everything banned)
Starport - B
Bases – Naval, Scout, TAS, Imperial Consulate
Tech Level – 14 (Average Stellar)
Trade Codes – Fl, Hi, Ht

Bloody lovely that. I'd never come up with that myself.

 

[tycho brahe]

I agree totally although i have come up with some strange worlds using the system for example

Paradise X000CD9-8 As In Na Hi Va R

although the worst part of the planet was that it lay directly in the middle of a major communications route so there was a road block directly in the middle of the sub sector, it produced some interesting sessions,

the only problem with the rules are that my sub sector has far more planets than is practical my sub sector is filled with over sixty worlds most of which are non industrialized worlds and the most of these have class A starports as well.

 

[EDG]

I agree totally although i have come up with some strange worlds using the system for example

Paradise X000CD9-8 As In Na Hi Va R

How did you get pop C? You can't roll that up normally.

although the worst part of the planet was that it lay directly in the middle of a major communications route so there was a road block directly in the middle of the sub sector, it produced some interesting sessions

I would imagine that the comm route would be re-routed to go somewhere else then.

the only problem with the rules are that my sub sector has far more planets than is practical my sub sector is filled with over sixty worlds most of which are non industrialized worlds and the most of these have class A starports as well.

It sounds like you're doing something wrong then, rather than it being a problem with the rules. If you have 60 worlds in an 8x10 grid then you must be using Dense system presence at least, so ratchet that down to Scattered or Standard and you'll have less. Not sure about the multitude of class A starports, check that you're using the right tables there?

 

[tycho brahe]

How did you get pop C? You can't roll that up normally.

sorry the population was A in my list of planet codes Paradise is just under a planet i created that was pop C for a scenario which required such a densely populated world

 

[GypsyComet]

[ Not sure about the multitude of class A starports, check that you're using the right tables there?

If he's rolling Pop on 2d6 straight then using the Hard Science Starport mod (2d6-7+pop) then A ports will get more common.

 

[Yogah of Yag]

Query for those also familiar with CT: how does MGT world-gen compare with that of CT?

 

[GypsyComet]

Query for those also familiar with CT: how does MGT world-gen compare with that of CT?

Pretty comparable to late edition CT without the Book 6 add-ons.

I'm not a fan of the way MGT handles some of the DMs and conditional traps in world generation, however. Saying that a Pop 0 will automatically make the Gov and Law digits zero out should be included in the sections on Government and Law Level, not just hidden at the end of the Pop section as an after-thought.

 

[EDG]

sorry the population was A in my list of planet codes Paradise is just under a planet i created that was pop C for a scenario which required such a densely populated world

That's a weird one anyway though - it's an asteroid belt with trillions of inhabitants, but only has TL8? How does that sustain itself? In the playtest I suggested that such high population systems would require at least TL A, just to be able to have the infrastructure and know-how to support all those the people.

And bear in mind that such a system will utterly dominate everything around it - it's got what ordinarily would be several sectors worth of people in one system!

 

[captainjack23]

sorry the population was A in my list of planet codes Paradise is just under a planet i created that was pop C for a scenario which required such a densely populated world

That's a weird one anyway though - it's an asteroid belt with trillions of inhabitants, but only has TL8? How does that sustain itself? In the playtest I suggested that such high population systems would require at least TL A, just to be able to have the infrastructure and know-how to support all those the people.

And bear in mind that such a system will utterly dominate everything around it - it's got what ordinarily would be several sectors worth of people in one system!

TL 8 allows space habitats and fusion power, interplanetary travel and etc. Fusion power opens up vast possibilities, as does genetic engineering. Are they aliens ? Z-G adapted humans or aliens ?

As to the population, well, there are differing opinions as to sustainability, and noone is a realworld expert on the subject yet, so most guesses are as good as others.

A society like the ophiuchi hotine (Varley, IIRC) shows a space based huge population, with not too much greater tech.
I'd see it as either a system which lost its mainworld for some reason (Mote prime after a particularly bad collapse), or even had to evacuate it....a long time ago. Or, the result of an STL colony ship seeding a system. Or the discovery of a previously engineered microbubble dyson shpere. OR, they ain't human. Lots of ways to work it.


Plus, if they don't have jump drive, and are a bit isolated, they won;t dominate anything outside of their home system. This probably isn't going to be the case for long once they are contacted, though. Too many fortunes to be made on a newly discovered high population spacefaring society.

Cool idea. I may swipe it !

 

[GypsyComet]

A gas ring like Niven's "Integral Trees" also comes to mind. Not a stable situation, but in the time-frame of your standard Imperium it could work...

 

[EDG]

TL 8 allows space habitats and fusion power, interplanetary travel and etc. Fusion power opens up vast possibilities, as does genetic engineering. Are they aliens ? Z-G adapted humans or aliens ?

Primitive space habitats at TL 8. Isn't fusion TL9? They don't even have grav drives either.

It's not impossible at that TL, because the number of people living on each asteroid doesn't get too high (that said, there's not likely to be millions of asteroids bigger than 1 km radius, and if each of those has a few million on them then things may become difficult to maintain)

As to the population, well, there are differing opinions as to sustainability, and noone is a realworld expert on the subject yet, so most guesses are as good as others.

Yeah, you keep saying that as if to justify "anything goes" when really it doesn't. Common sense still applies, regardless of whether or not anyone is an "expert" - if you've got a million asteroids and stations, each with millions of people on them (for a population of trillions in total), and a TL 8 system that doesn't have grav tech then I think there's going to be serious limits on sustainability and communications.

We're supposedly at TL8 now and I doubt that anyone would seriously claim that we could sustain trillions of people here. Being space-based does make it easier, but the infrastructure requirements are still going to be phenomenal.

Plus, if they don't have jump drive, and are a bit isolated, they won;t dominate anything outside of their home system. This probably isn't going to be the case for long once they are contacted, though. Too many fortunes to be made on a newly discovered high population spacefaring society.

True, but would anyone else want them? That population would singlehandedly destroy the interstellar economy. And there'd be enough radio chatter going on that everyone for parsecs around will know that they're there.

 

[Woas]

I gotta agree, I just finished a sub-sector with 22 systems for MTU. "Making" the game (at least for Traveller) is half the fun! Are you just stopping at what the core book provides or are there extra rules for the rest of a system you are using?
I ended up going back through my initial 22 systems about 4-5 times with new little bits of info above what the book generates with dice rolls based on self-made systems (spectral class for star, number of other planets in the system, presence of asteroid belts, etc).

I love getting exotic atmospheres too. What sort of liquid chemicals do you think would cover 90% of Galliant? Must be something neat cause of the temps.

 

[GypsyComet]

I ended up going back through my initial 22 systems about 4-5 times with new little bits of info above what the book generates with dice rolls based on self-made systems (spectral class for star, number of other planets in the system, presence of asteroid belts, etc).

Additional system details have been covered before*, and it sounds like Mongoose will be visiting them again at some point.

(*CT Book 6, CT Grand Survey/Grand Census, MT Ref's Manual, MT World Builders Handbook, TNE Main rulebook, TNE World Tamer's Guide...)

 

[kristof65]

Yeah, you keep saying that as if to justify "anything goes" when really it doesn't. Common sense still applies, regardless of whether or not anyone is an "expert" - if you've got a million asteroids and stations, probably each with millions of people on them (for a population of trillions in total), and a TL 8 system that doesn't have grav tech then there's going to be serious limits on sustainability and communications.

We're TL8 now, supposedly and I doubt that anyone would seriously claim that we could sustain trillions of people here. Being space-based does make it easier, but the infrastructure is going to be phenomenal.

Depends on a lot of factors, though. If pretty much the entire system were asteroids - say the result of the Ancients's war, where a half dozen planets or more were reduced to chunks of rock, you could have more than enough space.

Also, remember that necessity is the mother of invention. Since we have a nice cozy planet to reside on, we have no need to push the technologies to sustain even millions of people in space. In a system with nothing but asteroids, and possibly gas giants, that's not going to be the case. Survive or die - even if your tech is only TL8 (and solar is viable, just not as efficient as it can be at that TL).

Still, the thing that makes most sense to me in this scenario is that the society was once a higher tech level, and has suffered in some sort of way to reduce it's current tech level. There are multitudes of ways to explain that, as well as time lines for the events and "recovery."

Plus, if they don't have jump drive, and are a bit isolated, they won;t dominate anything outside of their home system. This probably isn't going to be the case for long once they are contacted, though. Too many fortunes to be made on a newly discovered high population spacefaring society.

True, but would anyone else want them? That population would singlehandedly destroy the interstellar economy. And there'd be enough radio chatter going on that everyone for parsecs around will know that they're there.

Would they though? With that many people, how many resources are truly left for them to spend? Pretty much every chunk of rock is likely to be hollowed out, and the minerals refined and turned into living space a long time ago. The bulk of their resources are probably going to be in food production. They might represent a huge market, but one with no money, and no resources for which to pay for anything.

All they really have is cheap labor - but if their manufacturing base is still only TL 8, and with transport costs, is it cheap enough?


All in all, I don't see it as a long term sustainable society. But it is science-fiction, and given some of the things I've seen in mass media science fiction, it's no more unreasonable than a lot of other things.

 

[captainjack23]

TL 8 allows space habitats and fusion power, interplanetary travel and etc. Fusion power opens up vast possibilities, as does genetic engineering. Are they aliens ? Z-G adapted humans or aliens ?

Primitive space habitats at TL 8.

Permanent space habitats at TL8. (MGT).

Isn't fusion TL9?

Tech 8 (MGT).

They don't even have grav drives either.

There are other ways to travel in space at tech 8. ( MGT).

It's not impossible at that TL, because the number of people living on each asteroid doesn't get too high (that said, there's not likely to be millions of asteroids bigger than 1 km radius, and if each of those has a few million on them then things may become difficult to maintain)

While you are no doubt correct about the number of asteroids, the rest is a leap of opinion; probably good opinion, but its hard to assess on a simple "You said so" basis.

As to the population, well, there are differing opinions as to sustainability, and noone is a realworld expert on the subject yet, so most guesses are as good as others.

Yeah, you keep saying that as if to justify "anything goes" when really it doesn't.

Read what I wrote. Your idea is as good as mine. Not, "you are wrong and I am right"; I just don't subscribe to your worldview. Don't put patently silly claims in my mouth.

Common sense still applies, regardless of whether or not anyone is an "expert" - if you've got a million asteroids and stations, each with millions of people on them (for a population of trillions in total), and a TL 8 system that doesn't have grav tech then I think there's going to be serious limits on sustainability and communications.

We're supposedly at TL8 now and I doubt that anyone would seriously claim that we could sustain trillions of people here. Being space-based does make it easier, but the infrastructure requirements are still going to be phenomenal.

Actually, we are at TL 7 - between 7 & 8 (MGT again). No fusion that I know of makes things much different.

I'm pretty sure that unless you are assuming I'm way stupider than you, being an expert does matter when one wants to speak ex officio, or ex cathedra. Common sense suggest that a dolphin is a fish. Beware of using it as a yardstick for all knowledge.

I am seriously suggesting it. You are seriously doubting it. Neither of us are experts, but we both are very smart with decent academic credentials. Lets leave it at that and not wreck an otherwise interesting thread from a new player, okay ? We will not change each others minds. That at least is clear.

Plus, if they don't have jump drive, and are a bit isolated, they won;t dominate anything outside of their home system. This probably isn't going to be the case for long once they are contacted, though. Too many fortunes to be made on a newly discovered high population spacefaring society.

True, but would anyone else want them? That population would singlehandedly destroy the interstellar economy. And there'd be enough radio chatter going on that everyone for parsecs around will know that they're there.

Get rich quick schemes often pay little attention to long term social good. As in: Adventurers unloading a huge mass of tech 9 crap at sixteen times its outside price , trading it for lantnium (that basically useless metal at TL 8 ) on site for buttons, and geting rich flooding the lanthnium market in the subsector....crashing the futures and then derivative resources trading markets, and generally throwing a spoke in everone's wheel as it all seeps down. don't you hate it when that happens ?

But fair enough. Rather than argue about radio propogation and exact locations, and lanthium accessability, I withdraw my suggestion (in the interests of peace).

 

[EDG]

As to the population, well, there are differing opinions as to sustainability, and noone is a realworld expert on the subject yet, so most guesses are as good as others.

Yeah, you keep saying that as if to justify "anything goes" when really it doesn't.

Read what I wrote. Your idea is as good as mine. Not, "you are wrong and I am right"; I just don't subscribe to your worldview. Don't put patently silly claims in my mouth.

You can phrase it how you like, but to me "most guesses are as good as others" is exactly the same as "anything goes" because it means that people can just suggest what they like - even if it has no basis in reality - and defend what they say with "well we don't know that it couldn't work like that".

All I'm saying is that it's still possible to rule out certain things even if "nobody is an expert" - every idea or suggestion is still subject to criticism, and I don't believe anyone should stop commenting on or criticising them just because one person thinks that "every idea is as good as any other". I don't buy that.

I am seriously suggesting it. You are seriously doubting it.

No I'm not. I actually think it might just be possible to sustain trillions in an asteroid belt if each community within it is small enough (pop 6, tops) and is wholly self-sufficient, even if it is only TL8. I'd have much a harder time believing it was possible on a single planet.

 

[captainjack23]

As to the population, well, there are differing opinions as to sustainability, and noone is a realworld expert on the subject yet, so most guesses are as good as others.

Yeah, you keep saying that as if to justify "anything goes" when really it doesn't.

Read what I wrote. Your idea is as good as mine. Not, "you are wrong and I am right"; I just don't subscribe to your worldview. Don't put patently silly claims in my mouth.

You can phrase it how you like, but to me "most guesses are as good as others" is exactly the same as "anything goes" because it means that people can just suggest what they like - even if it has no basis in reality - and defend what they say with "well we don't know that it couldn't work like that".

All I'm saying is that it's still possible to rule out certain things even if "nobody is an expert" - every idea or suggestion is still subject to criticism, and I don't believe anyone should stop commenting on or criticising them just because one person thinks that "every idea is as good as any other". I don't buy that.

Given that I've never said, written or espoused any of those extremely silly, excessively absolutist, and probably completely rhetorical viewpoints you decry, it's hard to see where we can or should disagree here.

So..... rolled up any interesting planets lately ?

I'm trying to see if there's any way I can justify an adventure in a gas giant - perhaps stranding them on some kind of floating kelp-analogue forrest/sargasso in the calmer parts of an eye storm ( say, an anticyclonic disturbance - a big ass partially formed high pressure trough). Is it likely that there is a level where the pressure isn't too crushing (say, less than 2-3 bars) and the temp above freezing, on a GG with a max Grav of 1.1? (saturn sized or less, I think)

Any suggestions ?

 

[GypsyComet]

I'm trying to see if there's any way I can justify an adventure in a gas giant - perhaps stranding them on some kind of floating kelp-analogue forrest/sargasso in the calmer parts of an eye storm ( say, an anticyclonic disturbance - a big ass partially formed high pressure trough). Is it likely that there is a level where the pressure isn't too crushing (say, less than 2-3 bars) and the temp above freezing, on a GG with a max Grav of 1.1? (saturn sized or less, I think)

Any suggestions ?

Ever read Michael McCollum's "The Clouds of Saturn"?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Clouds_of_Saturn

 

[Anonymous]

I'm trying to see if there's any way I can justify an adventure in a gas giant - perhaps stranding them on some kind of floating kelp-analogue forrest/sargasso in the calmer parts of an eye storm ( say, an anticyclonic disturbance - a big ass partially formed high pressure trough). Is it likely that there is a level where the pressure isn't too crushing (say, less than 2-3 bars) and the temp above freezing, on a GG with a max Grav of 1.1? (saturn sized or less, I think)

Any suggestions ?

The first thought that came to me was...a ship rescue...something/someone who was skimming that had a malfunction and broke down...?

Just the first thought, like I said.

 

[captainjack23]

...it's just awesome.

Seriously. Using all of the options (temperature, factions, customs), and the ideas it gives me are just crazy and fun. Example (just my interpretation of course; I'm sure some of you will have come up with something different):

Galliant
Floating cities over a burning world. Currently, the government is being pressured by a fanatic religious movement (Zen Sunni) starting to gain converts, and an Air Marshal who is popular with the military, and somewhat famous, but not yet so much with the people. Fashion sense, however, dictates all - it's rumored the Zen Sunnis are gaining converts thanks to their sense of dramatic style!
Size – 8 (1g)
Atmosphere – 13 (High Density; floating habitats needed)
Temperature – 13 (Roasting 81 degrees and up)
Hydrographic – 9 (86%-95%)
Population – A (tens of billions)
Government – 9 (Impersonal Bureaucracy)
Factions – 2 (1 –Non-Charismatic leader (fringe), 2 –Religious Dictatorship (minor))
Culture – Fashion: Proper high fashion necessary.
Law Level – 13 (everything banned)
Starport - B
Bases – Naval, Scout, TAS, Imperial Consulate
Tech Level – 14 (Average Stellar)
Trade Codes – Fl, Hi, Ht

Bloody lovely that. I'd never come up with that myself.

I agree. It is fun, and quite often a really cool way to develop out of the box.

Gallant is cool. I can see lots of potential for interesting interactions with players, and from out of left field, too. Suppose, say, that the crew's basic uniform is a hat with the ships logo on it....and suppose it is either interpreted as a political statement ("no I don't care who the next marshal is....why do you ask ? Hey. Let go of me"), or a daring avaunt guard fashion statement...("you'll pay me how much for my hat ? "); or their bright idea to bring in personal grav belts turns out to be a highly restricted item because they make it too easy for the cities to communicate outside of official channels; or perhaps they are a distressing and immoral color.

Heh. And airship battles, sky rebels and the like. Oh yeah.