Jumping into combat... Scenario wrecker?

[HappyDaze]

I've only been playing for a few months, and we've mainly played Annihilation and Call to Arms scenarios. Most recently, we decided to try the jumping into combat rules and opted for a Space Superiority scenario. It was a Narn vs. Centauri conflict at 5 War (the biggest we had played).

My Centauri force (see below) was split with 12 ships on the board and 12 in hyperspace. The Vorchans opened jump points on turn 1 but did not go through. After seeing the positions of the four jump points, the other 8 ships - my largest - waded into ideal firing positions. The Vorchans came in on turn 2. Between the massive number of initiative sinks that allowed me to form jump points after most of his force had moved and the close ranges I jumped into, the battle was terribly one-sided. At the end of the second turn I had only lost two Vorchans and two Darkners (many ships were damaged) and the Narn opponent had only a single G'Vrahn remaining.

Are battles with jump points supposed to be so quick and vicious?

My force (5 War):
1 Octurion (in hyperspace)
2 Primus (in hyperspace)
5 Centurion (in hyperspace)
4 Vorchan (in hyperspace)
5 Darkner
3 Covran
4 Kutai

My next battle will also be a Space Superiority mission, 7 Battle, against an unknown opponent and I'm considering trying the same tactic with the following:

2 Xaak (in hyperspace)
6 Xill (in hyperspace)
6 Xeel w/mix of fighters
2 Vaarl

 

[JTL109]

The Hyperspace trick is less likely to work with the Vree due to the
reduced command bonus on your first rolls. Your Vree force may not
even be able to be in Hyperspace. Plan for the worst situation.

 

[Target]

Seems a little silly being able to have most of your fleet in hyperspace but then i thought you could only have 1pt in hyperspace but we don't use most of the scenario's so don't really know. The 1 pt thing seems more fair to me.

 

[HappyDaze]

The Hyperspace trick is less likely to work with the Vree due to the
reduced command bonus on your first rolls. Your Vree force may not
even be able to be in Hyperspace. Plan for the worst situation.

It doesn't matter who sets up first (I'm assuming that's where you feel the command bonus is relevant) since the scenario allows both players to have up to 1/2 of their ships in hyperspace at the beginning of the scenario.

 

[CZuschlag]

Seems to me the battle was more based on initiative sinks than Hyperspace. We have a common practice of advising our opponents of how many ships we intend on taking during fleet selection, so as to not "outsink" our opponents too far. Simply put, small ships are such a better buy that this is reasonable; the current breakdown structure is massively flawed.

Our first pass at the math suggests that
1 Priority A ~= 1 Priority (A-1) + 1 Priority (A-2).
not
1 Priority A = 2 Priority (A-1)
as it does now. We have a lot of research to continue this line experimentation.

Short message: the more you buy down, the more you win, and the results are drastic at that.

Also it is worthwhile to remember that a ship in hyperspace that does not open a jump point cannot be used as an initiative sink.

 

[HappyDaze]

Also it is worthwhile to remember that a ship in hyperspace that does not open a jump point cannot be used as an initiative sink.

Initiative rounds 1-12: deployed ships move
Initiative rounds 13-16: Vorchans open jump points but remain in hyperspace
Initiative rounds 17-24: Octurions, Primus(-es?, -i?), and Centurions enter through their choice of the four available jump points.

No use of 'false sinks' here.

However, it should be legitimate to use a ship in hyperspace as a sink by declaring that it is not activating a jump point nor is it moving through a present jump point. This does actually count as a move since it prevents you from pouncing with it later in the turn.

 

[HappyDaze]

Seems to me the battle was more based on initiative sinks than Hyperspace. We have a common practice of advising our opponents of how many ships we intend on taking during fleet selection, so as to not "outsink" our opponents too far. Simply put, small ships are such a better buy that this is reasonable; the current breakdown structure is massively flawed.

We use bidding:

Roll 2d6. High roller can select to go first or second.

1. First bidder bids 1 FAP.
2. Second bidder bids 2 FAP.
3. First bidder bids 2 FAP.
(repeat steps 2 & 3 as many times as neded)
4. Second bidder bids 1 FAP.

Yes, we always use odd numbers of FAP to make this work out smoothly, but that's hardly a problem.

We're currently considering the following houserules to keep the 'sinks' from being too much of a problem:

1) The force must be divided up into a number of squadrons no greater than the number of points in the scenario (in 7 Battle, a maximum of 7 squadrons). This prevents overuse of "initiative sinks" where one side has to move everything before the other has moved even half of his force.

2) Each squadron can contain no more of the force's total allocation than 1 fleet allocation point of the next higher priority. In a Battle priority scenario, no single squadron can have more than 1 War point of value (it could have up to 1 War ship or 2 Battle ships or 1 Battle ship and 2 Raid ships, etc. but never more than 4 ships in any single squadron). This prevents a single massive squadron being able to alpha strike before the other player gets any return fire off.

3) Energy mines must be centered on a target. This is necessary to keep squadrons from getting totally wrecked by Energy Mines - without this change, Energy Mines become too effective if squadrons are made mandatory as per changes 1 & 2. They will still hit multiple targets if they get too close to one another.

 

[GhostRecon]

Also it is worthwhile to remember that a ship in hyperspace that does not open a jump point cannot be used as an initiative sink.

Initiative rounds 1-12: deployed ships move
Initiative rounds 13-16: Vorchans open jump points but remain in hyperspace
Initiative rounds 17-24: Octurions, Primus(-es?, -i?), and Centurions enter through their choice of the four available jump points.

No use of 'false sinks' here.

However, it should be legitimate to use a ship in hyperspace as a sink by declaring that it is not activating a jump point nor is it moving through a present jump point. This does actually count as a move since it prevents you from pouncing with it later in the turn.

I was sure ships couldn't exit hyperspace through a jump point that had been opened in the same turn... you had to wait one turn.

 

[skavendan]

You do no standard ship may enter hyperspace or real space in the turn it is created unless specifically stated...

 

[HappyDaze]

I was sure ships couldn't exit hyperspace through a jump point that had been opened in the same turn... you had to wait one turn.

You do no standard ship may enter hyperspace or real space in the turn it is created unless specifically stated...

Could you please show me where this is stated in the rules? It is clear that a jump point for entering hyperspace may not be entered on the turn it is created, but AFAICT, the rules for entering realspace do not have that restriction.

They state:

Entering Realspace
<<<Paragraph saying that you must have a ship on the board to bring units in from hyperspace.>>>

To bring ships into realspace (that is, bring them from hyperspace and onto the table), at least one must have the Jump Engine or Advanced Jump Engine trait, and perform the Initiate Jump Point! Special Action. This is done during the Movement Phase by nominating the ship to move in intiative order as normal.

Place a jump poit counter anywhere on the table. Roll 3D6 and deduct the ship's Crew Quality - the counter is then moved that far in a random direction, as it is almost impossible to accurately predict the correlation between hyperspace and realspace. This jump point may be held open for up to three turns, so long as the ship continues to use the Initiate Jump Point! Special Action and may be used by any friendly ships (even those that do not have the Jump Engine trait) who are also waiting in hyperspace. As soon as the ship creating the jump point moves onto the battlefield, the counter is removed.

<<<Two paragraphs telling what restrictions ships entering through jump points must follow.>>>

The only indication that a jump point can not be entered on the turn it is created is found under the Entering Hyperspace section, which has an entirely different set of rules.

 

[Da Boss]

its in the FAQ's isn't it -

just checked and it says:

Q. Can you emerge from a hyperspace-realspace Jump Point on the turn it was created?
A. No. No ship can enter a Jump Point on the turn it is created.

 

[skavendan]

Giirrrrrr you beat me to it Da Boss

 

[Da Boss]

you should trust in the Shadows not the Sith :lol:

 

[skavendan]

And heres the link http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/pdf/ctafaq.pdf

 

[HappyDaze]

Hmmm...

New to this board and just checked the FAQ.

That changes the strategy but doesn't defeat it. Now I'll just open jump points all around the enemy force and watch them scuttle around them on turn 1. On turn two I'll have the entire hyperspace force (except one or two ships) drop their points and exit through the most advantageous points (the ships holding the used points will obviously go last). It'll be a battle of bluffs...

 

[skavendan]

Hmmm...

New to this board and just checked the FAQ.

That changes the strategy but doesn't defeat it. Now I'll just open jump points all around the enemy force and watch them scuttle around them on turn 1. On turn two I'll have the entire hyperspace force (except one or two ships) drop their points and exit through the most advantageous points (the ships holding the used points will obviously go last). It'll be a battle of bluffs...

Depends on race(s) and what empire your attacking and scale?

 

[HappyDaze]

Depends on race(s) and what empire your attacking and scale?

No, it really depends on how much of his force he keeps in hyperspace, how many jump points he can open, and how many initiative sinks he brought. His hyperspace reserves will be the best counters, and that's why I say it's going to be a game of bluffing.

 

[skavendan]

Depends on race(s) and what empire your attacking and scale?

No, it really depends on how much of his force he keeps in hyperspace, how many jump points he can open, and how many initiative sinks he brought. His hyperspace reserves will be the best counters, and that's why I say it's going to be a game of bluffing.

Some missions specifically state how many ships you can have in hyperspace.

So it's not always a limitless option.

 

[HappyDaze]

The thread is about the Space Superiority mission. The tactics I've been talking about have all been based around the rules for that scenario, with half of the force in hyperspace. I even listed the fleets I'd used/am using...

 

[mrambassador1]

Hi all,
It would seem your opponent did not use hyperspace himself. The use of hyperspace can be quite effective, often the best counter is to keep a decent reserve of ships there yourself.

I find it ironic that the FAP breakdowns were changed because many players didn't like them saying big ships were favoured, now they have been changed it's pissing off the other half lol.