Jrusteli Castle Making

[Rurik]

Is there any existing background on the castle and keep making tech of the Middle Sea Empire? Particulary the designs of frontier keeps over the past couple hundred years (circa 700-900)?

Or is that pretty much open to interpretation right now?

 

[ninthcouncil]

Or, to put it slightly differently - can I use all those maps I've got from Harn? :wink:

 

[Adept]

Such thinking is only done on the Gloranthan Digest, as far as the third age is conserned. Offiscial, published Glorantha material never really goes that deep into the specifics. I doubt Mongoose will be any different.

That said, it's just the sort of detail some of us think a lot about.

I'd go with solid bronze age stuff. Very high city walls*, but rather simple buildings othervice. I wouldn't use the medieval fortressess of Hârn, I wouldn't do that even for the third age.

-Adept

*You could have a look at the giant built citadels of Balazar, from the Griffin Mountain reprint. They are pretty much from the right era. Balazar used (or rather, will use) giant labour, but the EWF and the Godlearners have a lot of resources to achieve the same scale.

 

[Exubae]

I'd go with solid bronze age stuff. Very high city walls*, but rather simple buildings othervice. I wouldn't use the medieval fortressess of Hârn, I wouldn't do that even for the third age.

The God Learners and Westerners (Malkioni) have a pretty close tie into medieval/Dark ages would have thought early Norman style castles would have been their style.

But Central Genertela is going to be distinctly wooden palasades and Earth works.

 

[ninthcouncil]

Some of the simpler Harnic keeps might be usable in the West, but megacastles such as Burzyn (modelled very closely on one of the great Welsh castles, Beaumaris I think) are probably not appropriate.

The Balazar city maps are excellent (modelled on ancient Greek cities, maybe?), but even in the Third Age Balazar is a primitive backwater, so these probably aren't that representative of the wider world of Gloranthan castle architecture. As suggested, "barbarian" fortifications should be most likely be of the wooden palisade or earthern rampart model.

 

[simonh]

I say use what you want. The Kingdom of Logic had huge metropolises and magnificent construction technology. Bear in mind that the Pantheon in Rome was built is 125 AB, but the orriginal was even older. The Sancta Sohia in Byzantium was built in the 6th century, but was also a rebuild of an even older structure so vast and complex structures pre-dates medieval times by many hundreds of years.

So far as castles are concerned, roman fortifications were pretty impressive stuff. Also don't forget they could always contract Mostali craftsmen (at exorbitant rates).

Balazar is the arse end of nowhere, and always has been. I'd never use their construction technology as the baseline for Glorantha.

 

[Rurik]

Actually not trying to re-use any existing castle plans, I want to develop a couple of keeps and was just wondering if there were guidlines.

I would definately think that the Middle Sea Empire was more advanced than late Bronze Age as far as castle design goes, I just wasn't sure if there were guidlines. Square Keep/Round Keep, Wall construction and the like.

I was thinking of going with Sqare towers for MSE and Round for EWF just out of flavor (they seem to fit) but round is actually more advanced, and I would think that the western cultures were more advanced. The EWF after all is pretty much just a bunch of barbarians whom aspire to become dragons (silly fools).

On the other hand I'nm not sure that will matter - are there any seige rules planned that take into account the structural advantages of round towers?

 

[Mark Mohrfield]

I'd go with solid bronze age stuff. Very high city walls*, but rather simple buildings othervice. I wouldn't use the medieval fortressess of Hârn, I wouldn't do that even for the third age.

The Second Age is supposed to be more advanced than the Third, for the most part. It's the age of Empires and great magical experimentation. Third Age is post cataclysmic.

Mark Mohrfield

 

[CharlieMonster]

It's worth remembering technology doesn't alway follow a straight progression from primitive to sophisticated. Some of the structures produced by the Hittites & Sumerians, not to mention stuff put up by them north african blokes who kept putting too many sides on their D4s could knock the socks off the most sophisticated medieval designs. We also have absolutely no idea how to go about recreating domes like the ones on St Pauls in London or St Sophia in Istanbul even today.

 

[ninthcouncil]

it's probably fair, in any discussion of Seond Age Western construction abilities, to mention the Tower of Xud. :shock:

 

[algauble]

it's probably fair, in any discussion of Seond Age Western construction abilities, to mention the Tower of Xud. :shock:

less fair, though, would be to mention it and not explain what you're talking about for the benefit of the unenlightened... i suppose i'll have to go google "tower of xud" now...

... ok, let's see, it was written up in Tradetalk #6
... also from GtSA, "a mile-high edifice erected with the aid of powerful Sorcery" by the God Learners...

Some of the 2nd Age art we've seen so far portrays some pretty impressive-looking construction. GtSA p 15, for example.

 

[ninthcouncil]

it's probably fair, in any discussion of Seond Age Western construction abilities, to mention the Tower of Xud. :shock:

less fair, though, would be to mention it and not explain what you're talking about for the benefit of the unenlightened... i suppose i'll have to go google "tower of xud" now...

Sorry, I thought since it was in G2A I wouldn't labour the point.

I always thought that in the 3rd Age the derelict Tower was a great place for a mega-adventure, but never got round to running a campaign in Ralios. Of course, in the 2nd Age it's still in use as a magical observatory, so the ambience is a bit different.

 

[Adept]

The Balazar city maps are excellent (modelled on ancient Greek cities, maybe?), but even in the Third Age Balazar is a primitive backwater, so these probably aren't that representative of the wider world of Gloranthan castle architecture.

Sure the place is primitive, but the hero Balazar wasn't, and he had huge giants to use as labourers. I'd say the citadels are pretty good examples of high end fortifications.

 

[Exubae]

Problem with castles etc. they start to become less viable in the face of magical assault - especially air based assaults.
Your going to need pretty hefty magic to protect a moderate sized castle from incursions from earth elementals sent to undermine walls or just tunnel in a new entance under or through, or stop that sorceror form/setting a nice breech in your stonework.
Though I suppose large warding rituals must exist to protect such buildings.

 

[soltakss]

The Balazar city maps are excellent (modelled on ancient Greek cities, maybe?), but even in the Third Age Balazar is a primitive backwater, so these probably aren't that representative of the wider world of Gloranthan castle architecture.

Sure the place is primitive, but the hero Balazar wasn't, and he had huge giants to use as labourers. I'd say the citadels are pretty good examples of high end fortifications.

But, but, but, Balazar hasn't happened yet!

In any case, he use giants to build Pelorian-based citadels. Not very advanced at all.

The EWF used Draconic and magicall architecture that had magical meaning. The Jrusteli used some Brithini architecture, some Mostali stuff, some from other cultures and some magical architecture of their own, so they could have castles of any size and kind.

I wouldn't restrict yourselves because of some idea that 2nd Age architecture is somehow more prinitive than that of the 3rd Age. Use whatever you want.

 

[simonh]

Problem with castles etc. they start to become less viable in the face of magical assault - ...
...Though I suppose large warding rituals must exist to protect such buildings.

That's the key. For every magical attack there is a magical counter. Wardings, ground-to-air magical attacks, defensive air cover, weather spells, etc are obvious ones.

 

[ninthcouncil]

Problem with castles etc. they start to become less viable in the face of magical assault - ...
...Though I suppose large warding rituals must exist to protect such buildings.

That's the key. For every magical attack there is a magical counter. Wardings, ground-to-air magical attacks, defensive air cover, weather spells, etc are obvious ones.

Trouble is it just makes more for the hassled ref to think about. You have to cover so many bases.

 

[Adept]

I wouldn't restrict yourselves because of some idea that 2nd Age architecture is somehow more prinitive than that of the 3rd Age. Use whatever you want.

I'm not thinking like that, in fact.

It's more of a case of wanting something more interesting than the endless repetition of high-middle-ages to reneissance stuff fantasy RPG (and books) are full of.

Second age was pretty advanced. Parhaps I'd look Roman stuff for the most advanced stuff, where I look to bronze age and earliest iron age from my Third Age technology.

 

[richaje]

It's more of a case of wanting something more interesting than the endless repetition of high-middle-ages to reneissance stuff fantasy RPG (and books) are full of.

Second age was pretty advanced. Parhaps I'd look Roman stuff for the most advanced stuff, where I look to bronze age and earliest iron age from my Third Age technology.

For the Empire of Land and Sea, imagine what can be constructed with a very skilled professional crafters (who have stolen secrets from the Mostali) combined with immense financial resources. I personally like to imagine Gothic architecture with flying buttresses supporting impossibly tall towers. Think a cross between Burg Eltz, the Alcazar of Segovia or Marienburg castle with a Gothic cathedral. With taller towers (for the benefit of the sorcerers defending the location) and more ornate. The sort of stuff that amazes barbarians and can be defended with relatively few men.

For the EWF, I think they largely use the old Vingkotling fortifications (immense hill forts built by the Thunder Brothers or by the ancient Vingktoling kings). Think Bibracte or Manning or the Sinhagad. Many of these hillforts have become urban centers in their own right. Both the Orlanthi and the EWF use elite flying warriors - which makes fortifications less significant (although they certain use them to frustrate raiders or foreigners).

Jeff

 

[simonh]

That's the key. For every magical attack there is a magical counter. Wardings, ground-to-air magical attacks, defensive air cover, weather spells, etc are obvious ones.

Trouble is it just makes more for the hassled ref to think about. You have to cover so many bases.[/quote]

Not realy, you only need to cover the bases that come up in the game. If some theoretical magical attack might concievably have some theoretical magical defence but it doesn't come up in play then I'd just assume that they have it covered, but it's not important enough to detail mechanicaly or worry about in the game.

After all, this is already true of mundane attacks. I'm no expert on medieval or ancient world architecture or battle/siege tactics, yet I've run games involving battles and sieges. There are lots of things going on in the background of the game that I and the players never discuss or even think about. Nobody could ever detail and document all of it, and there's no need to.

For everyone who wants to know exactly what spells and rituals each side has and uses, and how many magic points they take, I'd counter do you actualy know how many arrows each archer has, or what their sleep paterns and relief schedules are and whether the kitchens can supply them with enough food, etc. We all abstract a huge amount away in our games, and this is just another case of that.