Is it possible... need your opinion.

[Bushido]

One of my player is planning to build a grappler character for our new Conan game. He's convince that he'll be effective in combat.

Is it realistic to have such a character and still be effective in fighting against opponent with weapons?

Any of you play a grappling oriented character?

Any suggesting on how to build a good grappler?

Thank you for your time.

 

[Voltumna]

One of my player is planning to build a grappler character for our new Conan game. He's convince that he'll be effective in combat.

Is it realistic to have such a character and still be effective in fighting against opponent with weapons?

I don't see why it shouldn't be effective in combat. The main disadvantage of grapplers is that they can't defend against attackers not in the grapple. This makes the grapplers very vulnerable, but if your palyer is to be a grappler, he will have Improved grapple, and that allows you to use a combat maneuver, that allows you to use your grappled opponent as a shield, and the manuever is unsurprisingly called Human shield. So while your opponent will be unable to defend, you will be able to parry with him, and if you are attacked by his buddies for a second time, he will receive the damage. That is the main disadvantage and the solution to it. Also remember that to have Improved grapple he needs Improved unarmed strike, and a character with that feat is considered armed even when he is not actually wielding any weapons, and although unarmed strikes have a AP of 0, damage dealt when grappling is not reduced by DR. The other disadvantage could be that grapple is based on strength, which will apply to parry defence if he manages to use his opponent to parry, but against his grappled opponent, he can only dodge, and that is based on dexterity. There is also a feat from Shadizar City of Wickedness that allows you to use your dex modifier instead of strength's for grapple checks.

Any of you play a grappling oriented character?

I have been incliened to go that way a number of times, but playing a mostly thief character, I have opted for something else. Our GM has a NPC that is a grappler, and he kicks ass nicely.

Any suggesting on how to build a good grappler?

There are a number of options to become a dangerous grappler. First, grapples deal 1d4+str damage as unarmed strikes. So taking brawl will increase that to 1d6, and let you take Improved unarmed strike once for 1d8 and up to 1d12 if you are from an oriental land. Ifhe is a soldier of enough level, he can take Weapon specialization in grapple to boost damage even more, but the feat to look at is Crushing grip. That is a devastating feat that on a successful grapple check, you can deal all or part of your damage to constitution, strength or dexterity. The good thing about grapple damage is that it isn't affected by DR. There are other combat maneuvers that can be used while grappling. There is always the old tactic of you get him while I hold him. There is an option for multiclass thieves-barbarias called the Ruffian in Hyboria's Fallen. It is called Dirty grapple, if you win an opposed check, your opponent is stunned for 1d6 rounds, meaning he can't do anything at all,a nd being a thief, that means you will have some sneak attack dice. I do like the idea of characters that are deadly with their own hands, taht don't rely on anything, and even disdain weaponry, so I would encourage your player to go that way.

 

[argo]

Here is the key thing you need to understand about grapplers: they are not killing machines, they are denial specalists. A well built grappler can choose most any other humanoid his own size or smaller and remove that opponent from the fight. The cost? The grappler also removes himself from the fight. By now you should be starting to see the pardigm. A good grappler should try to pick the highest priority target and nutralize him, he then has to wait for the rest of his team to either wipe out the opposition or else come and help him beat up the opponent he is grappling. If the grappler chooses the wrong opponent to nutralize or his team fails him then he is left with his ass hanging out in the breeze.

So playing a good grappler is a very tactical position. It is a very powerful build for two reasons. 1) you are forcing the defender to play on your terms. The defender has to beat you in an opposed grapple check and until he does he is unable to do much of anything but try to escape the grapple. 2) since few characters take Imp Grapple merely as a defense to grapplers it means you will probably have an advantage over other human grapplers; and if the defender doesn't have a full BAB then your victory is almost guaranteed. IOW you can basically walk up to that big barbarian who is doing so much damage with his greatsword, grapple him, and now he is virtually useless since he has to try and fight you with light weapons or unarmed attacks.

What are the weaknesses of grapplers? Well if the defender has any friends in the area, espically any friends with sneak attack dice, then the grappler is asking to have his throat cut. Second he does very little damage per round. It takes forever to kill someone in a grapple so the grappler really does need to rely on the rest of his party to either gang up on the defender with him or to face the rest of the opposition without him. Lastly grappling is mostly useless against anyone who is a larger size than you as well as many non-humanoid opponents, you do not want to grapple most monsters.

As for how to build a good grappler, you need
A full BAB (barbarian or soldier would work best)
A very good Str score
Improved Unarmed Strike
Improved Grapple
Brawl

You also want a good Con and toughness because you will probably wind up taking lots of small hits over time. Stunning Attack is also good with grapples.

Weapon Focus/Specialisation is good though please note that by the RAW Weapon Focus "unarmed strike" and Weapon Focus "grapple" are actually two seperate feats which really hurts grapplers. IMC I ignore this as a house rule

As for the feat Crushing Grip, I think it is way overpowered and as a house rule I have banned it. I replaced it with the feat Earth's Embrace from OA.

First, grapples deal 1d4+str damage as unarmed strikes. So taking brawl will increase that to 1d6, and let you take Improved unarmed strike once for 1d8 and up to 1d12 if you are from an oriental land.

:?
What, no. No, you deal 1d6 + Str with the Brawl feat and that is it. I think you have confused Imp Unarmed strike with Improved Natural Attack, which is a completly different feat and not in the Conan rules.

Hope that helps.

 

[Sven]

First, grapples deal 1d4+str damage as unarmed strikes. So taking brawl will increase that to 1d6, and let you take Improved unarmed strike once for 1d8 and up to 1d12 if you are from an oriental land.

:?
What, no. No, you deal 1d6 + Str with the Brawl feat and that is it. I think you have confused Imp Unarmed strike with Improved Natural Attack, which is a completly different feat and not in the Conan rules.

Hope that helps.

I think Voltumna means "Greater Unarmed Strike" from Hyboria's Finest. This feat indeed increases the unarmed damage die by one step for most characters, or up to D12 for Khitan and Vendhyan.

To build a good grappler the character should be Khitan, because Khitans have a better selection of feats for unarmed combat. And I would even suggest that he takes the Scholar class with the Oriental Magic Style, which has some very good spells (Warrior Trance!!!) which increases the combat abilities of an unarmed character. With the Oriental Magic he can also take some bonus feats like Defensive Martial Arts, Improved Critical (Unarmed Strike) or Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike) instead of a New Sorcery Style. As a GM you could also rule that he may take "Grapple" instead of "Unarmed Strike" in this case.

 

[Trodax]

As argo points out, grappling is not very good when you are 1) outnumbered or 2) up against larger-than-man opponents (a Man-ape will kill anything in a grapple!). If grappling is your characters only combat tactic and you find yourself in one of these situations, you're kind of screwed. If I were to build a grappling fighter, I'd therefore strive to make him more versatile than being "just a grappler" (this also fits nicely with how I like my Hyborian Age warriors to be; as versatile as possible). This shouldn't be much of a problem, since you really only need the 3 feats argo suggests.

For example, I think a 3rd level Hyborian Soldier armed with a greatsword and with the feats Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Brawl, Power Attack and Cleave would be a very versatile warrior. If you're up against multiple opponents; use Cleave. If you're up against big monsters or armoured opponents; use Power Attack. If you're up against anything that tries to "cheat" (a Feinting Thief or a Combat Expertising Zingaran sissy for example); drop your sword and grapple his ass!

Such a character would also be very useful even when the GM decides to pull the old Conan trick of starting you out locked up in a dungeon, unarmoured and unarmed.

I'm no expert on the Oriental Magic stuff, but I don't think the grappling Scholar that Sven suggests would be all that effective; I think he'd have too low BAB and too few hp to really pull it off.

 

[JohnLokiBeard]

There's plenty of precedent in pulp fiction for loincloth-clad chaps grappling large beasties - humanoid or otherwise - and stabbing them with a dagger, so that should certainly be a viable option. Anyone care to suggest the best way to play this?

 

[Bushido]

Thanks guys for your input!

Personnaly, I'm looking for a way to introduce "submission" techniques into the game. There is the choke already, but I'm looking for armlock, kneebar, ect.

Something like when you "pass" your armlock, it breaks the opponent limbs. Any ideas on how this could be made?

 

[Tegman]

You could rule that if you have your opponent pinned, then you can try and break a limb or the neck, if you succeed, then the limb is broken. In reality, I don't think it's much harder than that, but in a RPG it could be too powerfull, since the brawler would just grapple, pin and then break the opponents neck. Then again, if the opponent is pinned, a friend with sneak attack can gut the opponent pretty good too, and that's pretty nasty as well.
Maybe make a feat out of it so not everyone can do it?

 

[Bushido]

What about a feat like "submission";

You start your grappling as usual, and can choose to apply the submission technique. If your grappling check is successful, you do a "submission attack" check (like an unarmed attack): if successful (you pass your technique), the opponent makes a saving throw vs fortitude. If he misses, the limb is broken This could result in -4 dex, -4 str.

What do you think?

 

[Valaryc]

personally i think this whole grappling & submission stuff is way to much. of course it shows your interest in martial arts...but PERSONALLY i don't like it in a conan game.

just my oppionion (beeing a martial artist myself).

there was an article in S&P about a martial artist class....don't know the content (not interestet in "D&D monks" in conan) but perhaps some stuff is usefull for you.

 

[Bushido]

You're right, it shows my interest in martial arts. I want to make it like ancient Greek Pankration, not like kung-fu fighting! ;-) It could be a martial technique from Argos.

 

[Trodax]

There's plenty of precedent in pulp fiction for loincloth-clad chaps grappling large beasties - humanoid or otherwise - and stabbing them with a dagger, so that should certainly be a viable option. Anyone care to suggest the best way to play this?

Well, if you assume that your loincloth-clad chap is of high enough level, its quite possible within the rules. A Man-ape has a +16 grapple bonus (+6 BAB, +6 Str, +4 Large size). A 20th level Barbarian with Str 22 (quite low for that level actually) and Improved Grapple will have a grapple bonus of +30 (+20 BAB, +6 Str, +4 Improved Grapple). He could basically hold the Man-ape down and tickle him to death, if that was his fancy.

Thing is, facing off against one Man-ape is a pretty easy encounter for a 20th level character and if the Man-ape had a pal or three, the Barbarian would be in much more trouble if he tried to grapple. Also, for a lower level character grappling a Man-ape is much more of a risk since, if the beast beats you on the grapple check, the damage inflicted is horrendous.

 

[taylor]

For submissions, we've added a new skill; Submission grappling.
When attempting a submission, the attacker declares a target (either a choke or limb submission). The attack roll is a Submission skill level check, and is opposed by the defender's Submission skill check (or Escape Artist check, whichever is higher). Initial success by the attacker results in the defender being pinned and another submission check is immediately attempted. If this too is successfull, the defender is rendered unconscious for 2d6 rounds if choked, otherwise a limb (chosen by the attacker) is dislocated. Submissions can only be attempted if you have been pinned, or are pinning an opponent

What the damage caused by a limb being broken is up to you. In our campaign, it is very serious.

 

[Bushido]

For submissions, we've added a new skill; Submission grappling.
When attempting a submission, the attacker declares a target (either a choke or limb submission). The attack roll is a Submission skill level check, and is opposed by the defender's Submission skill check (or Escape Artist check, whichever is higher). Initial success by the attacker results in the defender being pinned and another submission check is immediately attempted. If this too is successfull, the defender is rendered unconscious for 2d6 rounds if choked, otherwise a limb (chosen by the attacker) is dislocated. Submissions can only be attempted if you have been pinned, or are pinning an opponent

What the damage caused by a limb being broken is up to you. In our campaign, it is very serious.

How do you deal with a broken limb?

 

[Taharqa]

What about submission grappling is not already covered by the feat Crushing Grip? You can treat strength or dexterity damage as dislocated and broken limbs and constitution damage as choking.

 

[kintire]

When attempting a submission, the attacker declares a target (either a choke or limb submission). The attack roll is a Submission skill level check, and is opposed by the defender's Submission skill check (or Escape Artist check, whichever is higher). Initial success by the attacker results in the defender being pinned and another submission check is immediately attempted. If this too is successfull, the defender is rendered unconscious for 2d6 rounds if choked, otherwise a limb (chosen by the attacker) is dislocated. Submissions can only be attempted if you have been pinned, or are pinning an opponent

Wait wait... Let me get this right. You grapple someone with improved grapple. Then next round, you make a skill check to render them helpless, then another to take them right out?

:shock:

I'm not sure abolishing weapon combat is strictly within the Conan ethos...

 

[taylor]

Wait wait... Let me get this right. You grapple someone with improved grapple. Then next round, you make a skill check to render them helpless, then another to take them right out?

Not quite, you have to already pinning or be pinned by an opponent. You then have to win 2 skill checks to choke or submit them.

I'm not sure abolishing weapon combat is strictly within the Conan ethos...

I guess it depends on what you are after. I think there was a reason historically that nearly every single warrior culture in the world developed a submission grappling skillset to supplement their fencing styles. Having said that though, weapons are still far deadlier with the HP rules we use (ie, HP = Con x2, plus the character gets 10 Wound Points, a'la the Star Wars RPG).

 

[kintire]

I guess it depends on what you are after. I think there was a reason historically that nearly every single warrior culture in the world developed a submission grappling skillset to supplement their fencing styles.

To supplement, yes.... not replace. The reduced hit point thing helps, but even so, I think this is a little OTT. In my opinion, grappling is far too powerful as it is, without beefing it up!

 

[Bushido]

Sometimes, the safest place in a fight, is close to your opponent! ;-)

 

[taylor]

I guess it depends on what you are after. I think there was a reason historically that nearly every single warrior culture in the world developed a submission grappling skillset to supplement their fencing styles.

To supplement, yes.... not replace. The reduced hit point thing helps, but even so, I think this is a little OTT. In my opinion, grappling is far too powerful as it is, without beefing it up!

I understand what you are saying, but if you look at a lot of fencing styles, especially the medieval German and Italian stuff (which are the closest historically accurate styles to the fighting in Conan), you see grappling is very common. From what I've seen, more 1 on 1 fights end up in grapples than don't actually.

Even in the English styles like Silver, that actually discourage grapples to a certain point (prefering to "fly out"), often end up in them. You could argue that in the rules set we use that an English fencer might have a high Escape Artist skill rating to represent his preference for escaping grapples.