Iowa Vs Kagero

Keith

Mongoose
A number of issues have been raised in the "Hitting on a 7+" thread. As a result I suggested a test game. This was a single Iowa Class Battleship versus 4 Imperial Japanese navy Kagero class destroyers.

I fouth such an engaement on Friday using the Victory at Sea scenario and feel its battle report requires a new thread because of the other issues it raises.

Battle Synopsis - Phase 1
We were plyaing to the rule that 7+ to hit rolls are impossible so it is of little surprise that the opening stages of the battle resulted in the forces closing and the making of the first torpedo runs (made and resolved over 2 turns).
The Iowa was unfortunate, not gaining any hits on the destroyers in the first of these turns. It was forced to go evasive so was also unable to hit on the second.
The Kageros were far luckier, causing significant damage and a magazine explosion (preventing it from firing for 3 turns).

Battle Synopsis - Phase 2
The Iowa steam away at full steam hiding behind its own smoke to give its guns a chance to recover from the critical hit. The Kagero's were orced to turn and regroup for a scond run. It was turn 6 before the battleship was caught (still not being able to fire).

Battle Synopsis - Phase 3
Two of the Kageros were able to unleash an unopposed second torpedo run, which again resulted in significant damage and another lucky critical leaving the Iowa dead in the water.
One of the second pair of kageros was not so fortunate when it made its attack run in the following turn. Two hits from the Iowa's main armament turned it into drift wood before it could loose its torpeodes.
Despite another turn in which the Iowa failed to roll the appropriate dice to get a hit (except to do one point of damage with its secondaries) on the attacking destroyers a final volly of torpedoes sank the battleship in turn 9.

Conclusions
Although, in this case the Kageros won out it was genearlly felt that the fight was even. The lucky crticals (achived only by rolling 4,5 or 6 after a natural 6 damage roll) and the fact that all the destroyers survived their first attack run were major factors in the final result.
 
The above battle raised some points regarding the rules. The following are my opinions on these.

Spotter Aircraft Speed
This should be increased, even if they are only allowed to "spot" when moving at slower speeds. The magazine explosion meant that the Iowa had to flee for 3 turns. As a result itsspotters were too far away to contribute.

Priority Levels and Game Balance
Though this encounter appears even (anyone else want to give it a try to confirm or deny this assertion?) the combatants are on the more powerful side for their class, particularly the Kageros. No other destroyers could go up against abatleship with any realistic chance of success because their torpedoes ar one shot.
I believe that a points based system would be better suited to Historical games; who in their right mind would field a Sendai in stead of a Kagero (or a Kongo instead of a Nagato).
In a fictional based game such as ACTA it is acceptable to tweak ship stats so that all at a given priority level can be made equally potent. This is not true of a game which also requires historical accuracy.
 
I've never played ACTA -so this rules system that VaS is based on is new to me.
As much as the ACTA mechanics work for B5 (so i've been told) and seem to be balanced - for VaS which relies on being 'partly' historical/factual the 'priority level' system clearly shows its flaws.
I don't know if this is 'heresy' here, but i had to say it.
With the exception of making historical battles (which i suppose makes up a portion of the games played) other battles will not be historical and based purely on 'what if/available miniatures'...
So, some ship types will be perma-mothballed. In 'point systen' games certain classes do become unused - but this is due to poor game balance/point balance.
Is there a reluctance to go for a 'point based' system?
To me, some sort of (well thought out) comparative mechanic that calculates a ships abilities seems to be the only way of making this game balanced.
I would love to see the VaS tourney on March 24, and i think we can all guess which classes of ships won't be in players 'fleet lists'!

Tee out.
 
Keith, thanks for the write up. Very interesting and some good points made. However, I take umbrance :lol: with the Nagato/Kongo disparity. I had such a battle the other day where I did choose Nagato over Kongo. Nagato was constantly shadowed by RN submarines and I felt that had I taken Kongo she would have been able to speed right through the submarine screen. Now, Nagato was only slighty damaged due to the torpedo belt and a combination of flank speed and evasive manuevering, but she did become separated from thee rest of my task force due to her much slower speed. So, I put forward that choosing Nagato vs Kongo is not such a forgone conclusion.
 
The radar was not of much help. Unless we have miss read the rules it only provides the -1 mofier at long range, which simply negated the +1 modifier for such range.

The Kageros were at flank speed throughout the game so the Iowa could only fire when the Kageros were beam on (when the +1 for speed was negated for showing the beam aspect). This only happened when the destroyers were making their attack runs. (The magazine critical meant that the dstroyers could turn after their first pass without fear of being targetted. Had this not been the case it could have made a difference).

The one exception to this was when I tried to make smoke to shield a destroyer and lucked out because of some poor rolls.
 
Were you taking into account the -1 to hit the Iowa because all of your Kagero's were moving at Flank Speed? (knocking the to hit roll back up to a 4+...

Also the PL system breaks down because your game is considered fair...

1 Iowa vs 4 Kagero at what is a 1point War level gema.

Play the game at Raid and you still get what is supposed to be a fair game... 1 Iowa vs 8 Kageros... a 4 point raid game... :shock:
 
Court Jester said:
Were you taking into account the -1 to hit the Iowa because all of your Kagero's were moving at Flank Speed? (knocking the to hit roll back up to a 4+...

No because according to the rules the torpedo runs have a different set on modifiers. Speed is not listed as one of these. This may be an error onour part but if it is we did not correct it.

Court Jester said:
Also the PL system breaks down because your game is considered fair...

1 Iowa vs 4 Kagero at what is a 1point War level gema.

Play the game at Raid and you still get what is supposed to be a fair game... 1 Iowa vs 8 Kageros... a 4 point raid game... :shock:
True, the goal posts move depending on the priority level at which the battle is played. It is also historically inaccurate because it is highly unlkely a BB would be about without at least a couple of destroyer escorts.

Also it is my belief that without some considerable luck (all the Kageros surviving until turn 8 and the key critical hits) the result would have gone the other way. Let's see what Captain_Nemo's battle report has to say.
 
Couldn't the Iowa hold 35kts? In which case, the Kageros shouldn't have been able to close into torpedo range, as this is their own maximum speed.
 
Keith, it says the modifiers on a certain page (7 I believe) don't apply...some of them still do.

The only modifiers on page 7 are for Range, a fast moving target, or a large silhouette (beam).

If the Kagero fired the torpedoes while on Flank orders, then it takes a -1 to hit -regardless of how fast you're moving...a speed 4 ship moves up to 6 while on flank orders, and stil takes a -1. If the Kageros are on evasive orders when they fire (regardless of wether they are when the torpedoes hit) then all hits are going to be re-rolled.

Any battleship that doesn't go on evasive orders the turn torpedoes hit him is asking for trouble.
 
Alexb83 said:
Couldn't the Iowa hold 35kts? In which case, the Kageros shouldn't have been able to close into torpedo range, as this is their own maximum speed.

The Iowa could not flank speed because it was using its special order to create smoke. If it had not done this it would have been hit by further torpedo volleys far sooner
 
Chernobyl said:
If the Kagero fired the torpedoes while on Flank orders, then it takes a -1 to hit -regardless of how fast you're moving...a speed 4 ship moves up to 6 while on flank orders, and stil takes a -1. If the Kageros are on evasive orders when they fire (regardless of wether they are when the torpedoes hit) then all hits are going to be re-rolled.

I thought the -1 is for travelling over 7 inches in a turn, not for flank speed. It is moot in this case as the Kageros were doing this but is of note for most submarines or any other vessel with a top speed less than 5" and the odd destroyer with a speed of 8"(e.g. the Navagatori). I will need to consult the rule book, which is not at hand at the moment so you are probably right about the snafu.

Chernobyl said:
Any battleship that doesn't go on evasive orders the turn torpedoes hit him is asking for trouble.
Maybe, but it might decide to do so for two reasons.
1. The order only has a 50/50 chance of success and the ship may need to do a more important special action.
2. It makes it almost impossible for the evading ship to get a hit (reroll failed 4+ hits from 5 dice (a Kagero torpedo salvo) and you are still likey to get a hit, reroll failed 6+ hits from 13 dice (an Iowa's total salvo) and you will need to be luckyto hit).
It took 8 or 9 torpedo salvoes to do the job so the Iowa could afford to take a few hits
 
Any ship that uses the special action "Flank Speed" gets a -1 on its to hit rolls against any enemy ship. Modifiers from special actions are still applied to torpedo attacks.

You are right as well though, there is also a -1 to hit if the target moved over 7" in the movement phase, which the torpedos do ignore.

It takes the sting out of the destroyers a touch, meaning if they want a truly fearsome volley they have to slow down themselves.
 
Alexb83 said:
Couldn't the Iowa hold 35kts? In which case, the Kageros shouldn't have been able to close into torpedo range, as this is their own maximum speed.

In real life maybe... but on a 6x4 gamong table you cannot run away as sooner or later you will get cornered...
 
Plus it wouldn't look good on the CO's resume....

"Ah yes, Captain Hanson - ran away from those tin cans when he was driving Iowa, didn't he? Not really Admiral material, is he?"

:)
 
Court Jester said:
Alexb83 said:
Couldn't the Iowa hold 35kts? In which case, the Kageros shouldn't have been able to close into torpedo range, as this is their own maximum speed.

In real life maybe... but on a 6x4 gamong table you cannot run away as sooner or later you will get cornered...

situations like this I'd have a "scrolling table" applied... :wink:

Chern
 
DM said:
Plus it wouldn't look good on the CO's resume....

"Ah yes, Captain Hanson - ran away from those tin cans when he was driving Iowa, didn't he? Not really Admiral material, is he?"

:)

more truth than fiction!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_off_Samar#USS_Johnston_makes_a_stand

The other destroyers attacked the Japanese line with suicidal determination, drawing fire and scattering the Japanese formations as ships turned to avoid torpedoes. The powerful Yamato found herself between two torpedoes fired from the destroyer Heermann which were on parallel courses, and for ten minutes, she headed away from the action, unable to turn back for fear of being hit. Heermann, meanwhile, went toe-to-toe with the other Japanese battleships, advancing so close to her huge targets that they could not fire for either inability to lower their guns enough or fear of hitting their own men and ships.

Chern
 
I think it only fair to note at this point that Keith was playing me and had my standard luck with regard to dice rolls to contend with.

I am in no doubt that if Keith had command of the Iowa he would have still won. :cry:

I should also like to point out that if it were not for the much maligned torpedo belt, the Iowa would have probably sank by turn 4 or 5.
 
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