Illiteracy and the Bossonian tongue

[Trodax]

I'm working on a homebrew-thingie and have two rather specific questions for the Howard-scholars.

1) In Conan RPG, Picts, Kushites and Southern Islanders begin the game as illiterate. In my game, I'm thinking of also making other barbaric races start out illiterate: Cimmerians, Nordheimer, Himelian Tribesmen (and possibly also Hyrkanians). Is there anything specific in Howards work that suggests against this (other than that Conan could read, but I see him as a rather exceptional character)?

2) In Conan RPG, Bossonians are noted as having their own language. What is the basis for this in Howards work, couldn't they just speak Aquilonian with an accent?

 

[VincentDarlage]

2) In Conan RPG, Bossonians are noted as having their own language. What is the basis for this in Howards work, couldn't they just speak Aquilonian with an accent?

In Howard's Hyborian Age essay, he says, "Between Aquilonia and the Pictish wilderness lie the Bossonian marches, people by descendants of an aboriginal race, conquered by a tribe of Hyborians in the first ages of the Hyborian Drift. This mixed people never attained the civilization of the purer Hyborians and were pushed by them to the very fringe of the civilized world."

Later, when Howard grafted the history of Acheron to his Hyborian Age when he wrote The Hour of the Dragon, it becomes apparent that the Hyborians who settled the Bossonian Marches and mingled with the aboriginal peoples there were among the first drift, a drift that took "centuries and ages" (Black Colossus). The Bossonian Hyborians and the Aquilonian Hyborians are seperated by a considerable amount of time - enough time for the language to grow and change, especially when intermixed with the aboriginal tongue.

I think having the Bossianians speak a different but related tongue is reasonable.

 

[Yogah of Yag]

Would it be presumptuous to assume that Howard thought of the Bossonians as Welsh, or is there no suitable RL analog?

 

[DaveNC]

I agree with having all of the barbaric races start out illiterate. There will certainly be exceptions among unique individuals, but for the most part reading and writing would have little value in these societies. They could always have picked up a small amount of reading and writing, especially the Hyrkanians with their nomadic society (trading, horses, caravans, etc.)

 

[Trodax]

Thanks for the input guys! I'll keep Bossonian as a separate language and probably go with the illiteracy-thing (if no one else has any well-founded objections...?).

 

[Foxworthy]

Well I've never seen the reason for Barbarians to be illiterate. I've never seen any historical refrences to "Barbaric" cultures not having a written language. Especially when compare to the rest of the world at the time. Everyone should be illiterate int he game except Scholars if you want to be realistic. Though some people probably think that the Barbaric cultures don't have a written language.

I'm going to break down what barbaric races in Conan should have a written language. This doesn't mean they should be literate, it just means they should be as literate as any other civilised race in Conan.

Cimmerians being based on the Celts would have Ogham as a written language, so they should be a literate race.

Norheimir are based on the Germanic races, mostly on the norse, and saxons. Now the langiage links for those to races go to old english and what not that's like around 800-1000AD so it's not really old enough to count. I've found mention of proto-german which would have been spoken at that time which uses the runic alphabet. So that would reason that they are a literate race.

Hyrkanians are based on Mongols and Huns. Since the Huns are considered the older race I'll base this on them. I find that thier is little record of a hunnic language. Which makes me tend to thinkt hey didn't have an extensive written language. Though I saw mention that it was upposed to be part of the Turkic language which did have Orkhon alphabet around 8th centuray AD which makes me fell that they should be literate.

Himelian Tribesmen remind me more of the Ghurkas then anything. Especially with the bit about how they are named after thier god. Plus they were considered a warrior race by the Brittish at the time of REH as such would be considered barbaric. Following the roots of the language lead to the Brahmic script which is old enough to justify it's use. So I would say they were literate.

Kush from what I can find is based on the real Kush who spoke Old Nubian and wrote in a modified Coptic Language. I would say they were literate, though since Coptic was aquired through the Egyiptians so it would be easy to say that the Chaga having Stygian blood are the literate and the other being closer to the genrally oral languages of Africa are illiterate which would be what is supported by the rules.

Picts using the base of historical Picts in Scotland would give them the same written language as Cimmerians. But we have to factor in the Native American influence as well. I'm going to base it on the Algonquian language since it is old and I'm not going through thousands of languages. I can't find a mention of script for them, and since I was always lead to believe that they had an oral culture I'm going to say that they are an illiterate race based on that.

Southern Islanders are based on the Zulus and Bantu both which are languages as well. They were both oral languages until missionaries came to South Africa, meaning they would be an illiterate race.

As you can see all the rules about literate and illiterate races match up to the real life of having a written language and oral only language. So thier is no reason to make all barbaric races illiterate without making all characters illierate at start. It wasn't until the industrial revolution that the world started to become more literate.

Hope this helps.

 

[Trodax]

Thanks foxworthy! You've given me something to think on; perhaps you are right in that a Cimmerian really shouldn't be more likely to be illiterate than your average Aquilonian.

 

[Foxworthy]

It seems more like a D&D thing to make all Barbarian's illiterate. Though the old editions of D&D everyone was illiterate unless you took the Non Weapon Prof for it. Which made sense.

 

[Krushnak]

yeah it is a d@d thing, all though if you play hackmaster which is a parody of ad@d you all start out illiterate and have to learn it as a skill which makes sense in a dark ages/medieval setting. if you are going to make more than the allready listed races as being illiterate then i would suggest making anybody who didnt take sholar as a first lvl as being illiterate. also could give the literacy to nobles for 1 skill point instead of 2 to represent their access to money and education.

 

[toothill man]

it also gives scholars another use as you need someone to read the tomb stones before you loot :twisted: and need to see the only priest who still knows how to read the serphant tongue which could turn out to be a epic quest on its own :wink: 8)

 

[Foxworthy]

it also gives scholars another use as you need someone to read the tomb stones before you loot :twisted: and need to see the only priest who still knows how to read the serphant tongue which could turn out to be a epic quest on its own :wink: 8)

Yeah but that's covered by Decipher Script in the rules. I'm pretty sure the only reason that Classes are literate is to make things easier for the players. I think the D&D makes barbarians illiterate just so that they seem idiotic and less civilised.

I think the NPC race in the AE is illiterate as well. Or maybe it's the commoner class.

 

[Yogah of Yag]

it also gives scholars another use as you need someone to read the tomb stones before you loot :twisted: and need to see the only priest who still knows how to read the serphant tongue which could turn out to be a epic quest on its own :wink: 8)

Yeah but that's covered by Decipher Script in the rules. I'm pretty sure the only reason that Classes are literate is to make things easier for the players. I think the D&D makes barbarians illiterate just so that they seem idiotic and less civilised.

I think the NPC race in the AE is illiterate as well. Or maybe it's the commoner class.

Since RL pre-literate cultures (i.e. 99.9% of the human race until the 19th-20th century) had a very rich, complex oral tradition, might it be fair--if you insist on making Barbies illiterate--to grant them at least 5 ranks in Knowledge (oral traditions), or some such? :wink: This might introduce the benefit of synergy bonuses with other kinds of Knowledge or Diplomacy-type checks. Just a random thought.

 

[Foxworthy]

it also gives scholars another use as you need someone to read the tomb stones before you loot :twisted: and need to see the only priest who still knows how to read the serphant tongue which could turn out to be a epic quest on its own :wink: 8)

Yeah but that's covered by Decipher Script in the rules. I'm pretty sure the only reason that Classes are literate is to make things easier for the players. I think the D&D makes barbarians illiterate just so that they seem idiotic and less civilised.

I think the NPC race in the AE is illiterate as well. Or maybe it's the commoner class.

Since RL pre-literate cultures (i.e. 99.9% of the human race until the 19th-20th century) had a very rich, complex oral tradition, might it be fair--if you insist on making Barbies illiterate--to grant them at least 2 ranks in Knowledge (oral traditions), or some such? :wink: This might introduce the benefit of synergy bonuses with other kinds of Knowledge or Diplomacy-type checks. Just a random thought.

Well I don't support Barbarians being illiterate, I support everyone except scholars being illiterate. But if someone is going to make a race illiterate in Conan that's not already illiterate (without making everyone illiterate) than a free background skill would be fair, let them put it into whatever in case they want to buy literacy.

 

[JohnLokiBeard]

Surely the easiest tweak is to consider Literacy[script type] to be a Language.

 

[FailedSpotCheck]

Surely the easiest tweak is to consider Literacy[script type] to be a Language.

Hmm. I can read Cyrillic script but I can't understand Russian. Script and Language are two different things.

 

[JohnLokiBeard]

Surely the easiest tweak is to consider Literacy[script type] to be a Language.

Hmm. I can read Cyrillic script but I can't understand Russian. Script and Language are two different things.

Sorry, cut my post short cause my boss walked in.
What I meant to add was: you need to have both Literacy[Script] to know the letters and Speak[Language] to actually understand the text e.g. I can recognise the letters in a German sentence written in English/Latin script - and probably identify it as German - but not understand the words it, as per your own example with Russian & Cyrillic. Whereas my highschool French means I can make a fair stab at actually understanding a French sentence.

Actually, that brings up the point of whether Language skill should be further broken down into levels...


*Edited 'cause I put 'conversely' when I meant 'as per'. What a post to fumble my Language[English] on!

 

[Bregales]

Well I've never seen the reason for Barbarians to be illiterate. I've never seen any historical refrences to "Barbaric" cultures not having a written language. Especially when compare to the rest of the world at the time. Everyone should be illiterate int he game except Scholars if you want to be realistic. Though some people probably think that the Barbaric cultures don't have a written language.

I'm going to break down what barbaric races in Conan should have a written language. This doesn't mean they should be literate, it just means they should be as literate as any other civilised race in Conan.

**[snip]**

Picts using the base of historical Picts in Scotland would give them the same written language as Cimmerians. But we have to factor in the Native American influence as well. I'm going to base it on the Algonquian language since it is old and I'm not going through thousands of languages. I can't find a mention of script for them, and since I was always lead to believe that they had an oral culture I'm going to say that they are an illiterate race based on that.

Your assessment seemed reasonable to say the least. And I agree with the Native American influence as well, as I'd assume many do. I used to consider the Picts as a particular of the Hurons. Generally speaking, both the Algonquins generally and the Hurons, as all of the 5 nations of the Iroquois, had an oral history, but modified in that both tribal leaders and chiefs carried wampum both as a badge of office and in the founding of treaties, IIRC (and I hope I do!). It was a beaded strip which was added to as the tribe's history was added in, and the leaders and their messengers could 'read' the wampum belts, which could get rather long as you could imagine. But this was a very ritualised belt history, and it existed both for formal gatherings and treaties, and was not like a sunday newspaper if you will. So by and large their society was not literate in a written language, but considered to be well versed in their oral history.

Surely the easiest tweak is to consider Literacy[script type] to be a Language.

Hmm. I can read Cyrillic script but I can't understand Russian. Script and Language are two different things.

Sorry, cut my post short cause my boss walked in.
What I meant to add was: you need to have both Literacy[Script] to know the letters and Speak[Language] to actually understand the text e.g. I can recognise the letters in a German sentence written in English/Latin script - and probably identify it as German - but not understand the words it, or conversely your own example with Russian & Cyrillic. Whereas my highschool French means I can make a fair stab at actually understanding a French sentence.

Actually, that brings up the point of whether Language skill should be further broken down into levels...

I see you beat me to this point, well put! In my last game I either let things be fast n loose, left it to the scholar, or divided it as you indicate.