Hyperion early years as per the series

[Alexb83]

Hmm - the Mrs and I have started watching B5 all the way through recently, and last night we reached Voice in the Wilderness pt 2.

As per part 2, where you see the EAS Hyperion in combat, the weapons loadout does not tally with what we see in the EA early days fleet - there are no beams (goes without saying) - you don't see these until Severed Dreams - apparently these were a later refit onto the Hyperion hull.

And the heavy pulse cannon is boresight, whereas the medium pulse cannons are on turret mounts (although they can't turret through the rear arc because of the location of the bridge, and similarly the aft topside turrets can't bear through the fore arc because of the bridge). However given a 3d environment, there's nothing to stop you pitching the ship forward or backward so that weapons can fire 'over' the bridge.

Has anyone put any effort into re-working the loadout to tally with what we see in the series?

 

[Goldritter]

If I understand it right, than the EAS Hyperion in the Episode was the Pulse Cannon Variant of the Hyperion.

 

[Alexb83]

From the JMS commentary, it is simply one of the few surviving heavy cruisers from the E-M war, which would indicate to me that it was indicative of the ships from that period. If early days covers everything up to 2260, I guess it's acceptable, but I thought it only covered the Dilgar/E-M period and prior.

Beam technology supposedly wasn't integrated until late in the war, when it had been purchased from the Narn.

 

[Lord David the Denied]

What it needs is in service dates to exclude the beam-armed version from E-M war games. Simple as.

 

[Alexb83]

But not from c. 2259 era Babylon 5? This is my point, indications from the series are that the beam-armed hyperion wasn't around (or at least commonplace) even up to 10 years after the E-M war. The 2245+ service date needs pushing to the right by several years, I think.

Shouldn't the beam armed version either be bumped up from raid, or have itself removed from the early days fleet, and solely into the 3rd age.

Beam weapons are nice, but the tendency of ACTA seems to be to give some of them to every fleet, regardless of how this fits with the timeline or what we see on screen (Centauri, anyone?) whilst pulse weapons are shown to be highly devastating weapons anyway and very commonpace among the younger races.

 

[Lorcan Nagle]

Even if Hyperion was one of the ships that survived the war, that doesn't mean she couldn't have been refit to a mor emodern loadout in the intervening time.

 

[Alexb83]

Indeed no, however the clear fact that she doesn't use beam weapons against the highly advanced enemy in her boresight would seem to indicate that she didn't have them (yet) in 2259, let alone back before Earth had even bought them (c. 2247 at the earliest?)

Also, my overall point was that the forward/port/starboard loadout of the Hyperion in the game doesn't really match with the Boresight/turret arrangement of the pulse weapons we see throughout the series (but which is most clearly shown in VitW) where the Hyperion has to turn to bring her main guns around, whilst we see the turrets rotating port to starboard and firing pulse cannons.

 

[Lorcan Nagle]

Like someone said upthread, Hyperion was apparently a pulse cruiser rather than a main Hyperion. It's been a while since I saw ITB, so I can't say for sure, but did any Hyperions in it use beam weapons? Also, we'd have to cross-check with the old AoG books (which I don't have, never got into B5W) to see if they gave the EA beam weapons in the era as well.

 

[captainsmirk]

Well the target needn't have been in a boresight to be fired on most ships with boresights in the game don't have them in the series. Such as the Clarkstown which fires its laser from one of the side turrets which look exactly like the pulse turrets so should surely have similar arc capabilities.
Plus I believe that the Clarkstown was, according to B5wars anyway, a Hyperion Command Cruiser.

Also, my overall point was that the forward/port/starboard loadout of the Hyperion in the game doesn't really match with the Boresight/turret arrangement of the pulse weapons we see throughout the series (but which is most clearly shown in VitW) where the Hyperion has to turn to bring her main guns around, whilst we see the turrets rotating port to starboard and firing pulse cannons.

Well unfortunately ACTA doesn't seem to allow multiple arcs for the same weapon so those turrets are represented by the four seperate arcs of fire.

Nick

 

[Alexb83]

In this case, the weapons were boresight, though. If you look at the Hyperion class of ship whenever it's seen, the main guns on the ventral surface at the bow have vertical but not horizontal mobility. I think Ivanova specifically states 'she's bringing her main guns around' (or something to that effect) and we then see the Hyperion turn, firing a shot that goes wide, before the alien vessel is in boresight and they hit.

ACTA does allow for turreted weapons - I would say the P/S split actually biases the game because you could disable the 'turret' in one arc, but not in the other, whereas in the series this would have been a completely disabled turret. Similarly, the Hyperion can give two broadsides in ACTA in one turn, whereas in the series this would require them to have the turret facing both ways simultaneously

The only way to get around that would be to reduce the AD in each arc to represent the turret throwing fire one way, then turning and throwing it the other way.

As for ITB - no, I think the only beam weapons you see at all are those of the Minbari.

That should be dorsal, not ventral - and yes, I see your point about the Clarkstown beam coming from a 'turret' on the side.

 

[night owl]

Beam weapons are nice, but the tendency of ACTA seems to be to give some of them to every fleet, regardless of how this fits with the timeline or what we see on screen (Centauri, anyone?) whilst pulse weapons are shown to be highly devastating weapons anyway and very commonpace among the younger races.

I seem to remember a sequence where a Primus and a G'Quan are slugging it out at pretty close range and wind up killing each other. I think both ships shot beams at each other at one point. I can't remember which episode it was though.

 

[Alexb83]

It's season 2 'And now for a word'? I don't think either fire beams (though I'm happy to be corrected if the Narn did) actually, and even at close range their targetting with their pulse arrays is pretty lame (the Narn at least). With their first few shots going wide after they jump in.

 

[captainsmirk]

The Narn did...

I was only saying that the only Hyperion we see fire lasers fired them from the side turret so the forward fixed guns aren't where the lasers are. In B5wars those were the medium plasma cannons, which seem to have gained a forward arc despite their limited traverse... :?

Nick

 

[Alexb83]

Yes, it is curious... but then a boresight as with the Aggamemnon can traverse up/down, just not side/side. (similarly with the G'quan).

If people complain about being stuck with boresight pulse, give them more turns (we see that the Hyperion comes about quite easily).

Another quote from Lurkers guide...

Why did the battleships keep missing each other?
Actually, all sides in battle use ECM (Electronic Counter Measures) to throw off the targeting systems on the "enemy" vessels. But usually it only takes a couple of quick firings to compensate (which is what we've done).

 

[captainsmirk]

But the agamemnons laser is quite obviously fitted on a turret which traverses horizontally as well as vertically. I mean look at it in relation to the turrets futher back, they very alike and just align the other way, the barrel can move outwards on the mount.

Plus a ship can roll in space so that it could use vertical traverse as a horizontal one in relation to the target. The traverse is only relative to the ship on which the weapon is mounted...

Nick

 

[Voronesh]

Actually the Narn G'Quan fires its beam at a crazy angle bigger than 45° to the right (thats port? stupid human naval traditions) and downward. While the Centauri never EVER fire beams on the show.

The Omega beams can transverse up and down, and should be able to do right to left as well, only for the respective turret. At least the Turret design seems to imply such a thing.

 

[Burger]

right (thats port? stupid human naval traditions)

"Right" is longer than "left"
"Starboard" is longer than "port"
"Green" is longer than "red"

Right is starboard, and has a green light.
Left is port, and has a red light.

 

[Voronesh]

Yer.

ok so i got it wrong ^^. Just use a standardized system.

Which is kinda stupid to ask, when playing a wargame that uses inches, but whatever. Human intelligence is advanced enough to ignore discrepancies....

 

[Lord David the Denied]

It is a standard system.

Port - left
Starboard - right
Bow - front of the ship
Stern - rear of the ship
Beam - side of the ship (port/starboard beam to specify)
Dorsal - something on top of the ship (dorsal turret)
Ventral - something on the bottom of the ship (ventral turret)
Keel - line along the bottom of the ship
Spine - line along the top of the ship
Pitch - movement in the vertical plane (raise or lower the bow)
Yaw - movement in the horizontal plane (turn to port or starboard)
Roll - rotation of the ship along its length (roll to port/starboard to specify)

It's simple really.

 

[Voronesh]

Well just as simple as inches and feet and whatever.

But going with naval traditions. They do apply to the big ships, but not the small fighters. ^^.

So much for standarizations. Keep it simple for everyone. Even those navally challenged of us