How to use Shadows after the Armageddon lists?

Tolwyn

Mongoose
Hello,

I wanted to start playing Shadows and I'm wondering how to use them under the new stats from Armageddon. By now what I've read is that they have a very limited choice of ships and are getting much more damage than they dish out.

If you have any hinds or ideas how to play them properly please post here.

Thank you in advance :)
 
I am a new player and have the same questions of both the Shadows and Vorlons.

Do people still use SFOS stats for these ships for some games and then play bigger games with Armageddon Stats?

It seems a shame to buy a boxed fleet and hardly be able to use it :shock:
 
I don't think anybody with their wits about them would use the feeble SFoS stat lines; going for the 'they grow' bit has more or less stalled, I'll have to get back to that, but the version I use whenever it comes up- pretty seldom, actually- is the Tourney stat. That seems to be the best compromise split for affordability (in PL, not $) and effectiveness. They are no longer official, but why let that stop you?

Play style, I am not very familiar with them, I'm learning as I go, but they are vulnerable, probably fatally so, at long range. Their SM is a real advantage at close quarters, so what seems to be working is to get up close as fast as may be, jumping in if possible, and dance around the enemy at knife fighting range.
With their usually one weapon, and beams do not split fire easily, large numbers of small ships are the worst enemy. Small numbers of big ships are the opposition you want to see. Decapitate the enemy- kill the larger ships first and work down, I think. Mutinous dice notwithstanding, Shadows' killing power is fairly reliable, and you need to remove firepower from the enemy fleet as fast as possible with it.
 
and always take a scout with you the scout trait is nice and helps alot.

i would recomend to kill the smaller ships first cause you can with only 1 shot. thus the enemy has less ships to activate and maybe get you into a position he likes.
 
I played against shadows both before and after Armaggedon. Before they were fitted for hit and run coming backwards of your ship and shooting with turrets.
Now they have F arcs so it´s different play. Instead of "jumping" to your back, they shoot you devastating from a more standar position.
More fitted to their firepower I think.
I think your fire ranges are short, so best way to play is trying to come to range of the enemy without getting too much damage in the process. Abusing terrain features and space debris is the key. I would even cross aseroid fields if necessary.
I would take always a scout with me and every turn use it to repeat failed rolls. Your dice are TD,SAP, Beam and Precise but are few, so use the scout to repeat them and so minimize the effects of a bad luck day.
 
I'm not sure I'm the best person to give advice on how to use Shadows as I've lost my last 4 games with them...but there are a few lessons I've learned the hard way about changes in Armageddon and maybe you might learn from my mistakes.

Hash's Guide to Shadow Dancing:

Shadows are frail, even with the uplift from SFoS stats to the new Armageddon stats (and if you're playing with tourney stats it's actually a downgrade to Armageddon...yeah I know the ship is harder, but the WAR choice is worse than the old tourney WAR choice), you're still not a "stand there and fight" sort of ship..don't get me wrong, a hard hull will make you last a few turn but your opponent will outnumber you and wear you down with multiple weapons. Bottom line is that the way ancients take damage means that 100+ hits is not going to last very long, you'll be adding up the hits faster than Reaverman's post count ;)

Still there are a number of strategies that can make Shadows devastating...and they do change significantly in Armageddon due to the changes to fighters and stealth mainly but also due to the loss of the Turret arc on the Shadow War level choice (and Armageddon choice for that matter). Here are my top SEVEN (I could not think of ten :( ) tips (some are more relevant to campaign play rather than one-offs)...

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Shadow rule number 1 - If they can't get you in arc, they can't shoot you.

You may be frail but you sure can dance! You can outmanoeuvre everything apart from fighters so you should take advantage of that by always trying to place yourself out of your enemies worst firing arcs (or better yet out of arc completely). EVEN if this means you don't get a shot yourself...you take damage horribly, especially from DD, and TD weapons and unless you're SURE you'll take out whatever has just CAF'ed you in the first shot - wait until you get the best opportunities to fire...



Shadow rule number 2 - Patience is more important than aggression.

If you've played Shadows before you know how satisfying it is to go out and blow up something nasty the opponent has in the first two turns...and then you get upset when he kills your big ship in turn 5 or 6 from multiple fire from his small support ships. You lack patience! You don't NEED four or five turns to kill something...often you just need a single shot. If you're playing with a turn limit - see how much time you can spend keeping out of range while you're opponent scramble to keep up with you (doesn't work well with Whitestars!)

If your opponent has multiple small ships this is even better - stay well out of range for most of the game (if you can, asteroids are great for this) and about turn 8 or 9 zoom out and try to pick off a couple of stragglers. Chances are you'll take out a ship or two with minimal damage to your monstrosity and claim a great victory for the forces of chaos! Your opponent may look dimly on your sportsmanship however...

Shadow rule number 3 - Fighters have teeth. BIG TEETH.


Shadows were always a little vulnerable to repeated fighter attacks, mainly because they were the only vessels that could regularly outmanoeuvre them as they moved last. Before Armageddon though I pretty much used to ignore fighters, I hardly used my own fighters since you had to buy them as independent wings and the Shadow Ship (and Hunter in tourney stats) had Hull 6. If the Shadow Ship was really irritated by fighters, it's T arc let it get a shot off if you really wanted. The Shadow Scout of course had it's stealth to divert 2/3 of all fighter attacks...

That all changed with Armageddon - fighters are back with teeth. Armageddon introduced several changes that impacted on fighter survivability. Fighters now fire first and one of the new fighters (the White Star fighter) is capable of DD and has multiple attack dice. To top it all off, fighters no ignore Stealth with 1"...you can kiss goodbye to your scouts when playing against ISA! Because the WS fighter is fast - rule 1 and 2 become difficult to apply and it does obscene amount of damage - roughly 5 will kill a Scout in a single turn - before the scout itself has an opportunity to fire!

Against the Hunter and the Ship the fighters are still nasty, mainly because once they get on you, they are almost impossible to shake off...you can use your own fighters now against them but their dogfight score and numbers will probably buy you a turn before they come back to nip at your heels. Your lack of a turret arc on the WAR choice means you can't even take the desperate attempt to shoot at them with the molecular slice (as they will be out of arc) So how do you cope? With difficulty...you're going to take a hit, you've just got to plan it so its the last time you're opponent gets to use those fighters. Now the scout has a nifty AF weapon but as fighters move last, its rare that an enemy will remain in your arc...that's why you have to force the issue.

Step 1. Keep the Scout well out of range of the nasty stealth ignoring fighters...keep you own fighters with 10" range of your main ships.

Step 2. Bubba (your opponent) moves his fighters to attack your other ships...feel the pain.
Step 3. Next turn you move your scout (18" move is good for charging) to target the opponents fighters with your AF gun.

Step 4. When it comes to move fighters - YOU move your fighters first and engage the enemy in dogfights...tie up as many enemy flights as possible, don't worry about massive penalty to dogfights YOU want to lose (or rather don't mind)

Step 5. Bubba most likely wins the dogfight but can't move his fighters...now the ships can fire!
Step 6. Your scouts AF weapons wipes out the scum - all it cost you was a few of your own fighters.

Other methods exist of course, including making sure you cover each ship with a scout (including the scout providing cover if you can!)...if the scout survives the initial fighter assault, it should be able to clear up the mess.

The last anti-fighter tactic is desperate but it involves getting up close to an any vessel about to explode and unloading on them...the resultant explosion MIGHT take out a few...if it doesn't damage your own ship too badly.

Shadow rule number 4 - When the going get's tough, RUN!

Pretty obvious really but shadows regenerate - most other ships do not. With that mind, if the battle starts not to go your way - MOVE out, try and hide behind something and maybe your regenerate will bring you back into the battle later on. If playing a campaign game then consider leaving the field...

Shadow rule number 5 - Winning the battle is not as important as winning the war.

This rule is applicable to campaigns but consider what you want to achieve from each battle. Most of your choices cost you double RR to replace that a standard race PL ship, e.g. a Raid ship costs EA 15RR, it costs you 30RR!

Let us say you need to defend a Strategic Point in the campaign and you can field a Hunter and a couple of scouts...now you're opponent has a lot of fighters and other Capital ships, while you *may* be able to defend the point, you're unlikely to do so without incurring losses. It costs you a massive 30RR to replace a scout...and 15RR if you lose a strategic point, you do the maths! However, you're opponent gains 10RR for taking a new SP, if you manage to take out a Skirmish ship he's broken even...if you manage to take out more and leave without losing a ships...well he's made a loss!

In this situation, say you don't lose any ships but lose the battle (and strategic point) - then you lose 15RR.

If your opponent loses a Skirmish Ship (RR) and a Wing of Fighters (5RR) - he hasn't gained any RR...so if you add another Raid Ship on to the heap , he's also lost 15RR...it's at that point you've broken even (you and he have lost the same value of RR from your fleets). So if you can kill (or cripple/damage) any more after that...well that's a bonus and means he's lost more RR than you, even though he won the battle...remember KEEPING your ships alive is MUCH more important than winning one battle in the long term, no matter how large.

Shadow rule number 6 - Know when to fight, and where to fight.

Another campaign one. This is fairly simple too but your key assets are your SM and initiative...the later means that means you can often chose the battle location, the former means that hazards to others are a lifeline to you!

What am I talking about? Terrain my friend, TERRAIN! Terrain gives you cover, something you need with shorter range weaponry, and also something to dance around - watching your opponent try to keep up with you in an asteroid field (or Shadow regeneration zone as I like to call 'em) is most amusing I assure you.

Also - this may also sound very simple, don't fight battle that go against you if you can - if you're 3 FAP down against your opponent on open terrain then don't fight! Turn up to claim the XP ad simply leave (or if annihilation simply don't turn up). You're most important asset are your ships, not the strategic points. What you really want to turn up is an Ambush scenario...a free turn right in front of your opponent can be utterly devastating to the opponents fleet taking only minimal risk for yourself.

Shadow rule number 7 - Two Hunters is usually better than one Shadow Ship.


There isn't a huge difference between the Hunter and the Ship anymore, I used to prefer the Ship because its turreted weapon allowed the Shadow to exploit the SM ability to a greater extent but sadly, Armageddon has taken that away from me...

The Hunter is now by far and away the better choice over the Ship, 12 AD SAP BEAM TD beats 8 attack dice and the ability to target 2 (or maybe 4 if you can split the beam on both Hunters)...still the model is god awful and not a "proper" Shadow anyway so its up to you :)

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Well that's it so far, basically you need to put the survivability of your ships as the top priority, recognising that you have the time to make the telling blow, your opponent often does not. Armageddon makes your life harder as it strips your scout of its greatest protection and makes fighters, which were good against Shadows before, considerably more lethal.

To paraphrase the greatest heavyweight of all time..."Dance like a Shadow and err sting like one too" ;)
 
How about this for rules 8, 9 and 10?

8 ) If your enemy can't breathe he can't fight

9 ) If your enemy can't see, he can't fight

10 ) If your enemy can't stand, he can't fight

:lol:

LBH
 
Black Omega said:
Great post Hash, very informative +1 :D

LBH, crap response -1 :P

Black Omega - If only I listened to my own advice in the recent match ups I've had vs. ISA! I'm currently our campaign pinata having played 5 games and LOST 5 games soundly...doh!

LBH - You can't steal rules from the bad guy in Karate Kid III...

Rule 8 is - Never, never attack the ISA (this is a big change as the ruleset switches to Armageddon because before I would always attack the ISA due to the AF SAP DD weapon on the Scout which would tear up whitestars....The addition of the whitestar carrier and WS fighter + changes to fighters and stealth rules mean the ISA will own your Shadowy ass if they can deploy their carrier and its complement of 8 fighters!
 
Yes - hence my tendency to attack you early on and buy lots of scouts...hmm...maybe the lower PL thing will help!

any other tactics welcome BTW!
 
Hmm... never thought of those ideas. Thanks for the posts Hash. I am curious though. Any advice for fighting Minbari with Shadows? That Stealth roll is killer against Shadows. Which is another point of contention I have about the Vorlons and Shaodws, but that's beside the point. And the Nial fighters? Ugh... Before Armageddon, the Minbari would bring put as many Morshin as possible and swarm my ships with Nials. After Armageddon? A Sharlin and a bunch of Morshins. My friend and I have come up with the simplest of rules due to the results of all our battles in ACTA:

1. Minbari always win.
2. Earth always loses.
 
Fighting Minbari with Shadows?

Use scouts, get within 8". That reduces stealth by 3 if the scout is successful. Sharlins suddenly become stealth 2+.
 
Minbari are also tricky to fight due to their longer range beams (at higher PLs) which make it difficult to waste a few turns dancing around them.

I would generally agree with Greg's assessment to use scouts to reduce stealth but be careful - scouts are especially vulnerable to fighters, due to them ignoring the Scouts's stealth within 1" and Nials will make short work of a lone Scout.

To make this work you could try to pin some of the Nials with your own fighter flights (and take out with a carefully positioned Scout)...saying that you'd still have to beat the Nials's stealth! (would be 2+ at that range though with the Shadow bonus vs. Stealth).

To tell you the truth, never been too afraid of the boneheads as, sure they do have stealth and they hit hard, but generally one good hit seals the fate of most of their ships (well when you have SAP, TD, P, Beams they do!)...just don't roll a 1 on the Stealth roll ;)
 
Beaten Minbari with Shadows even with the older weaker SFoS lists and full on SFoS uber minbari.

Beaten shadows with EA for that matter too. Lost as well though.

If youre rules suggest that something 'always loses' then perhaps its time to consider altering your style of play completely or aknowledge the possibilty that not all fleets suite everyones style of play.

Personally I really like the new shadow list. Still don't like the hunter but will just use shadow ships to represent them normally (may get some FA shadows specifically for this purpose actually...)

And yes the WS fighter/carrier combo is nasty. But this is still a sore point with me, as I dont really care HOW good they are I still maintain that the whole idea of the WS carrier and WS figher is the worst idea in the history of the universe.
 
Hmm... I'll have to try those. Perhaps my tactics were slightly askew in that one, I never took Scouts later on in the campaign, because when I did, they were target number one and I couldn't protect them fast enough. That and Shadow fighters are nothing but speed bumps to Nials. Nonetheless, I shall endeavour to make the Shadows as scary as they should be.

It just always bugged me that the Shadows and Vorlons had to roll vs. Stealth when they are also technically First Ones. That and I miss the first version of their weapons with the Accuracy Special, but anyway, those are points for other contentions.

Of course our next battle is the 8 Shadow Omegas vs. 20 White Stars Scenario so it'll have to wait...
 
Well I hate to be the one to say it but I reckon those shadow omegas are going to get well and truly PWNED.

Shadow omegas whilst scary on paper I simply dont think can really cut it for their level. Still that said the majority of WS firepower is actually the pulsars which can be intercepted.....
 
You may be frail but you sure can dance! You can outmanoeuvre everything apart from fighters so you should take advantage of that by always trying to place yourself out of your enemies worst firing arcs (or better yet out of arc completely). EVEN if this means you don't get a shot yourself...

Definitely agreed. Given that you self-repair fast, if neither side is shooting for a turn that's a net victory for you.


The scouts are superb, and the scout reroll and the shadow's own horrendously high initiative means that no-one pulls deployment or first move tricks on you.....
 
Locutus9956 said:
Well I hate to be the one to say it but I reckon those shadow omegas are going to get well and truly PWNED.

Shadow omegas whilst scary on paper I simply dont think can really cut it for their level. Still that said the majority of WS firepower is actually the pulsars which can be intercepted.....
Yeah but this scenario is actually using them at their "real" PL of War so is a pretty even fight (and the White Stars don't have their fighters too). Should be a laugh and I'd like to hear how it goes.
 
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