How much did Clarke know about the Shadows?

nitflegal

Mongoose
I'm writing up an overview of EF Intelligence Services and this question keeps popping into my head; how much did Clarke know about his allies? We've seen Morden acting as a go-between with senators and the Psi-Corps but did he act as a cut-out with Clarke? I've always felt that Clarke probably did know who the Shadows were and probably had met with them, simply because I like the idea of him being an active, knowing member of what he was involved in rather than a dupe. I'd assume that he didn't know the background of the Shadow/Vorlon conflict like, say, Justin. However, it would make sense that he would want to meet his allies directly, especially if he was basically going to be thier servant. I'd suspect that a couple of Shadows phasing into view behind Morden as he talks about how Clarke will "rule an Empire bigger than the Centauri ever had" while subjugating the lesser races (always took Clarke as a bit of a speciesist) under the yoke of EF would be attractive to him. "Now, let me send a bunch of Shadows to teach you our tech for the next 10 years" (joke to ShadowScout, don't hit me!).

What say you all?

Matt
 

Graknor Stev

Mongoose
Could be.

But I like the idea of him being a dupe even more. I just love it when stories turn the table on people like that.
Anyhow, when dealing with the shadows one is always a dupe...
 

ShadowScout

Mongoose
I've always felt that Clarke probably did know who the Shadows were and probably had met with them, simply because I like the idea of him being an active, knowing member of what he was involved in rather than a dupe.
I'd second that - he may not have known it all - actually I'm certain he didn't - but he certainly did know where the help came from. I suspect he met with Justin and a few Shadows, who gave him half the truth - the stroy about the Shadows being "shepherds of the younger races" and having recognized the potential of the human race, thus found them worthy of their assistence, etc. He'd bite...

I'd assume that he didn't know the background of the Shadow/Vorlon conflict like, say, Justin. However, it would make sense that he would want to meet his allies directly, especially if he was basically going to be thier servant.
Not servant - I smell more manipulation then servitude in the way Clarke did what he did. But the Shadow MO is "we'll do you a favor now, but want an equal favor later" after all. And look at all they did... get him on top of the EA heap, "keep" a good deal of the opposition/resistance under control, use their abilities to get him information usually unavailable with EA methods, give him new toys he could never get on his own... what's a few little favors against all that...

I'd suspect that a couple of Shadows phasing into view behind Morden as he talks about how Clarke will "rule an Empire bigger than the Centauri ever had" while subjugating the lesser races (always took Clarke as a bit of a speciesist) under the yoke of EF would be attractive to him.
Well, it IS their usual sales pinch to get all the races ready to fight other races after all. Though I do suspect that Clarke was not that much interested in conquest, but in cementing "his" power. Not the promise of glory was his weakness, but the promise of security. And maybe something like Jha'Dur's discovery - for someone who doesn't want to loose power as much as he, the offer of relative immortality would be just the thing he'd sell his soul for. And I'm sure the Shadows had that too (after all, if a Dilgar could come up with it, the Shadows probably had the same formula in their basic chemestry schoolbooks... however, there may be more to this... anyone remembers the screen Fraklin looks at while analyzing the Anti-Agapic? Now think of a ShadowShip's skin... Very similar pattern... who knows if Jha'Dur didn't have a bit of help in her work...)

"Now, let me send a bunch of Shadows to teach you our tech for the next 10 years" (joke to ShadowScout, don't hit me!).
Biff :wink: :D :lol:
 

Greg Smith

Mongoose
I can never figure out all the conspiracies in the EA.

Clarke assissinates Santiago.

Clarke works with IPX and Psi Corps on the shadow ships.

Psi Corps is manipulating Earthgov.

There is one faction of Psi Corps shipping rogues to the Shadows.

There is Bureau 13.

The Shadows (Morden) work with Psi Corps and a senator, to cover up the shadow ship footage.

Are they all connected, ie Psi Corps and the Shadows know or were involved in Santiago's assassination?

Or are they each ignorant of the others' plans?
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
ShadowScout said:
however, there may be more to this... anyone remembers the screen Fraklin looks at while analyzing the Anti-Agapic? Now think of a ShadowShip's skin... Very similar pattern... who knows if Jha'Dur didn't have a bit of help in her work...)

Or just a rushed / overworked FX department. :) Funny how the simple answers are usually the truth, and everyone else builds things up to be huge conspiracies and mega-intricate plots. I mean if the truth came out about JFK's murder, people wouldn't believe it, because it would be too simple.

me
 

ShadowScout

Mongoose
Or just a rushed / overworked FX department.
And that is why I only say "may be more to this...". Could be, could be just CGI laziness again. I don't claim something unless I'm sure. However, it would perfectly fit the Shadows goals of promoting strift throughout the younger races... with a big prize for the winners...
In the end, it may be each individual GM's decision if he wants to make something of it in his campaign.
 

Judge Walker

Mongoose
I know a lot of Coup leaders take their own life when their empire comes crumbling down, but I always thought the reason Clarke re painted his office in an interesting shade of brain was because he knew about and willing aided the shadows. I mean as President he would have seen all the combat footage of EF ships against the Shadow vessels, then suddenly the plans for the Shadomega come across his desk...and he doesn't put 2 and 2 together. I think that is the stretch here.

So, to answer your question he was into the Shadow Plot up to his eye balls, and knew it. IMO.
 

frobisher

Mongoose
Greg Smith said:
I can never figure out all the conspiracies in the EA.

Clarke assissinates Santiago.

Clarke works with IPX and Psi Corps on the shadow ships.

Psi Corps is manipulating Earthgov.

There is one faction of Psi Corps shipping rogues to the Shadows.

There is Bureau 13.

The Shadows (Morden) work with Psi Corps and a senator, to cover up the shadow ship footage.

Are they all connected, ie Psi Corps and the Shadows know or were involved in Santiago's assassination?

Or are they each ignorant of the others' plans?

It's pretty much all connected - the footage that Ivanova uncovers in the Great Machine is of Morden (distinictive voice) talking to Clarke concerning the assassination of Santiago.

Jack, the plant at B5 was clearly working for Psi Corps and was facilitating the assassination attempt. Bureau 13 only was mentioned once due to (real life) legal reasons, but is pretty much Psi Corps black ops that we saw before and after.

That's not to say they don't all have their own agendas :)
 

frobisher

Mongoose
ShadowScout said:
However, it would perfectly fit the Shadows goals of promoting strift throughout the younger races... with a big prize for the winners...

Absolutely. The Dilgar, even if not directly supported by the Shadows, show a distinct leaning towards their philosophy.
 

Dag'Nabbit

Mongoose
Judge Walker said:
I know a lot of Coup leaders take their own life when their empire comes crumbling down, but I always thought the reason Clarke re painted his office in an interesting shade of brain was because he knew about and willing aided the shadows. I mean as President he would have seen all the combat footage of EF ships against the Shadow vessels, then suddenly the plans for the Shadomega come across his desk...and he doesn't put 2 and 2 together. I think that is the stretch here.

So, to answer your question he was into the Shadow Plot up to his eye balls, and knew it. IMO.

Not to pick too many hairs, but I don't think the Prez would have seen all that much footage of EF vessels fighting the shadows. The only ones that did were the one's involved in the Shadow War...wait a minute, I don't remember any involved in the Shadow War. It was the White Star fleet supported by Alien vessels. i don't believe their was one single image of an EarthForce Ship fighting the shadows.

Now their might be footage left over from the extraction of the Shadow ship from the site on Mars as well as the one that went nuts on Ganymede(?-not sure if it was there though).
 

Garet

Mongoose
He also ordered the bombing of civilians on Mars and the destruction of refugee ships. He'd probably hang high just for that. Dissolving the Earth gov senate and rounding up the senators. That torked alot people right there.
 

nitflegal

Mongoose
frobisher said:
Jack, the plant at B5 was clearly working for Psi Corps and was facilitating the assassination attempt. Bureau 13 only was mentioned once due to (real life) legal reasons, but is pretty much Psi Corps black ops that we saw before and after.

That's not to say they don't all have their own agendas :)

Wellllll. . . not necessarily. To be sure, we see a female Psi-Cop as the contact back at a base in San Diego. However, whether she is a rogue with Clarke, part of a Psi-Corps faction, etc. isn't explained. Certainly Bester's Psi-Corps faction wouldn't have been pleased with the attempt to kill Talia, as post-Ironheart she was pretty valuable to him.

I wonder if they were part of Clarke's dirty-tricks squad.

Matt
 

Max_Writer

Mongoose
Are they all connected, ie Psi Corps and the Shadows know or were involved in Santiago's assassination?

Or are they each ignorant of the others' plans?
I bet its a little bit of both. Bester obviously didn't know everything about the rogue telepaths being shipped off Mars and wasn't sure where they were going or why.
 

Sundog

Mongoose
Consider: the message Clarke leaves before he kills himself.
Consider: the messages Captain Jack was attempting to send before the fortuitous shot that blew away most of his Keeper.
Consider: the oblique references that the Minister gives to Londo before the IA counterstrike.

Clarke, I suspect, started out as simply an ambitious politician. But at some stage he became a puppet of the Shadows, first through manipulation, then via more...direct means.

At the end, he redeems himself. He writes a sentence multiple times on a sheet of paper, then circles letters to spell out "SCORCHED EARTH". By keeping himself from consciously acknowledging what he is doing, he avoids the detection of the Keeper.

At the end, the Shadows realise he is of no further use to them - and make him kill himself.

He probably knew a great deal about the Shadows by the end, but had no means to do anything with that knowledge.
 

frobisher

Mongoose
Sundog said:
At the end, the Shadows realise he is of no further use to them - and make him kill himself.

Except the Shadows are gone by this point... :)

I don't quite buy it - that would be the only bit of evidence that might point towards a keeper, and I suspect that jms would have shown us the keeper as pay off at that point.
 

Jal

Mongoose
I don't quite buy it - that would be the only bit of evidence that might point towards a keeper, and I suspect that jms would have shown us the keeper as pay off at that point.

me neither, keepers were only used when the person did NOT want to follow actions beneficial to the Shadows and their agents, Mr Morden and Justin were free agents who willingly followed their lead and did not get a keeper.

Clarke was a power mad politician (in the Hitler mould, not a puppet like the Centauri Regent).

he thought in a political way, he made a deal with them; they help him get into power and stay there and the Shadows get to play with humanity to suit their own purposes, it was a mutually beneficial deal. :wink:
 

Flarn

Mongoose
Clarke did the scorched earth bit because he was insane due to his own paranoia about aliens. It was Clarke who had instituted loyalty tests while Santiago was still alive and he seemed to be behind the witch hunt in the Earthforce ranks. Clarke didn't redeem himself. He followed the same plan Hitler did.
When defeat was inevitable for Germany in WW2, Hitler issued an order that every useful utility, railway, and other services were to be destroyed. Germany's defeat was a failure on the part of the German people for not doing what Hitler wanted them to do. If Germany was to be defeated, it must be wiped out as any inferior race should in Hitler's twisted world view.
Clarke was just carrying out this same policy with the Earth defenses. Earth had failed to do for him what he wanted and humanity should burn for failing their leader. Clarke went in with the Shadows willingly and sold out humanity (even the Psi Corps :p) to them to see his own insane vision made a reality. It's ironic that he sold out his own race to aliens to protect them from aliens.

Flarn, it beats Spoo any day
 
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