How do you handle playing or running a game with noble PCs?

[GypsyComet]

Started tangentially in this topic:
http://forum.mongoosepublishing.com/viewtopic.php?f=89&t=48799

Noble rank is not all that hard to come by as a PC. Raw characteristic roll, Navy career, muster out benefits in various places. But what if its a typical Free Trader game? Or a covert game? Punishing the player for his rolls seems against the spirit of things, but some justification will still be needed.

 

[Hans Rancke]

Noble rank is not all that hard to come by as a PC. Raw characteristic roll, Navy career, muster out benefits in various places. But what if its a typical Free Trader game? Or a covert game? Punishing the player for his rolls seems against the spirit of things, but some justification will still be needed.

I start from the premise that Traveller has always had a chunk of the social ladder missing. It goes directly from the Gentry (SL10) to the Imperial Knight (SL11) and the Imperial Baron (SL12), completely ignoring the entire planetary nobility and royalty and leaving very little room to squeeze it into. A hereditary planetary leader might just make it as a peer of an Imperial Marquis (if his planet is of sufficient economic strength). Below him many planets would have continental rulers (~emperors), national rulers (~kings), grand dukes, dukes, marquesses, counts, viscounts, and barons, all squeezed into SL11-12. This, mind you, on the same scale that spreads the lower and middle classes across nine social levels (SL1-9).

So I've extended the social ladder. To distinguish I call them social rungs instead of social levels. Imperial nobility start at SR24. Imperial knighthoods start at SR11 but goes up to SR23. A planetary baron is SR14, other planetary nobles range up from that. Planetary nobility is technically not worth anything in an Imperial context, but planetary nobles will usually be given an Imperial knighthood of the appropriate rung to give him the status he deserves.

All this means that when a PC with SR11 or 12 enters the Imperial Navy and gets elevated to SR 15 or 16, he gets a knighthood that makes him the equivalent of a planetary duke, not an Imperial dukedom.

Note that such a knighthood is not to be sneezed at. It usually comes with a stipend sufficient to keep him in appropriate comfort.

Hans

 

[rust]

I think up to a Count it should be no serious problem, at least
the real world history offers many examples of (often impove-
rished) low and middle level nobles in rather adventurous ca-
reers, and there were so many of them that a Baron, a Mar-
quis or a Count forced into strange pursuits because of a lack
of sufficient wealth and influence for the typical noble lifestyle
was nothing unusual.

Besides, such low and middle level titles were often the secon-
dary and tertiary titles of a higher noble used by his second or
third sons, who had no real duties and responsibilities. Count
William of Nowhere Special, Marquis of Farout, Marquis of Un-
known, Baron of Furtherout, Baron of Beyond-the-Frontier and
Beyond-the-Beyond, could even allow his bastard son to carry
his title of Baron of Beyond-the-Frontier - and tell him to stay
out of sight.

A Duke, however, would probably be a serious problem. There
were never that many of these, and they were high enough on
the social scale and visible enough to force the monarch to en-
sure that they lived the lives expected of noble peers of the re-
alm. In a Traveller game I would hardly allow a Duke as a play-
er character, except perhaps in a game which has court intrigue
as its focus.

 

[hdan]

(Dilettante has a lot to say about this sort of thing, btw.)

It all depends on the character of your interpretation of the universe.

Given the way that Imperial nobility works, lower ranking nobles could be more like what we would call "Trust fund babies" these days. You could easily have a character who was just cut off from his trust fund, and still tries to throw his weight around, often successfully, even though he may not have the resources to back up his threats.

Or the character might command some level of respect on worlds near his home world, and in general his overall demeanor would still grant him social interaction bonuses (of the "You seem like a fine, upstanding fellow" variety).

Or the character could be a variation on the "Gentleman Highwayman" - a roguish fellow with a decidedly upper-class charm. There are plenty of "age of piracy" romances (not the bodice-ripper type of romance, the "pretend pirates weren't all flea ridden sociopaths" type of romance) featuring nobles who have either lost their holdings through treachery, foolishness or politics, and who are thrust into a life of high adventure.

For a whole different kind of high social standing, reference Inara Serra from "Firefly".

If you can arrange to have most of the players have high-ish Soc scores, you could also do "Star Wars" type situations, where the characters are the Leaders of Men (like a Princess, the dispossessed son of a Sector Lord, and old General who fought on the losing side of a recent war and a pair of no-better-than-they-ought-to-be pirates, all banded together to do <X> with the material support of a shadowy organization whose goal is to undermine the legitimate government of the sector).

 

[Hans Rancke]

I think up to a Count it should be no serious problem, at least the real world history offers many examples of (often impoverished) low and middle level nobles in rather adventurous careers, and there were so many of them that a Baron, a Marquis or a Count forced into strange pursuits because of a lack of sufficient wealth and influence for the typical noble lifestyle was nothing unusual.

Yes, but that was European barons and counts and marquesses. Imperial barons and marquesses and counts have only the sound of their titles in common with such lowly people. You have a high marquis for every reasonably powerful world, so an Imperial marquis is more or less the equivalent of a planetary ruler. Keep in mind that we've never had a planetary ruler on Earth. The best we've been able to come up with are emperors, which could propably be said to be continental rulers -- sizeable parts of continents, anyway. From a European count to an emperor is quite a jump socially, and from there there's another jump up to an Imperial count.

Unfortunately, Traveller authors from the early days till now have never had any planetary barons and counts to play with -- they weren't provided for in the social levels. So they've uncritically used these super-emperors as Bob the Baron or Marc the Marquis who popped into the local starport bar to recruit a few adventurers for a bit of dirty work on the sly.

Just think for a moment about how you'd react to a story about President Obama popping into a waterfront tavern to recruit a few henchmen. Then consider that Obama would be lucky to get an Imperial barony if Earth was a member of the Imperium (he is, after all, only an elected ruler even if it is of a pretty decent little country -- a baronetcy would probably be what he could expect (a lifetime baronetcy, of course )).


Hans

 

[zero]

Wow, just reading this and I realise Ki, my character in Traders of Gaths XII is technically upper-middle class (Soc 9).

Looks like he should go for the long floppy hair and try to get a series or guest-spot on Dave, perhaps doing stand-up, being on a comedy quiz-show, or doing an adventure trek documentary or just plain old reviewing cars! (UK tv channel joke there) :wink: :lol:

 

[rust]

Yes, but that was European barons and counts and marquesses.

I very much prefer that model, in my view the nobility part of
Traveller was all too obviously written by someone who had on-
ly a fairy tale idea of what a real feudal aristocracy does look
like and how it works.

 

[phavoc]

Rank may open a few more doors for the PC, but it can also cause problems as well. The noble may encounter those who hate the upper-class, and therefore he'll find routine requests mis-routed, cancelled, "misinterpreted", etc.

Also, just because they have titles doesn't mean they have an income to match. Sure, he may be a Marquis, but his land/industry from which he derives his power may be broke, or his income is tied up in his investments, or whatever. Sometimes all people have is their title and they have to beg/borrow/steal to eat and sometimes just to maintain their lifestlye.

There are plenty of ways as a referee to make things more interesting with a noble in the party.

 

[Captain Jonah]

Here is a radical idea :lol:
Well ok its been mentioned a time or ten here before


Separate the Noble ranks for SOC completely.

Why should your Nobles all be those nice types with the shiny teeth that get on well with people while you lower class types are all ugly and smell. Why cannot those lower class and criminal types every make a roll that needs charm, wit and charisma where as just being born a noble makes you suddenly all those things :roll:

SOC gives you a stat used for personal interaction, Diplomacy, Broker, Streetwise all use this stat.

Take the entire noble and economic class structure and move it off to one side.

Go through the noble career and you are a noble or from a noble family. Go through the navy and you had a bit of work done to achieve that dashing poster boy look on the recruiting vids (besides it’s the romance of the career not your face that draws people in)

People see that space black Imperial fleet uniform, the gleaming gold braid, the medals, the proud history of the Fleet (and a very good PR budget). They can then ignore the scars, the face that breaks a mirror, the bad breath etc because YOU are a gen-u-in hero of the Imperium

If you want to play a noble game decide fixed or mobile.

Fixed is planetary nobles defending and supporting a fief or estate or working to defend the family continent or world. Trade intrigue, pirates getting bad in system, a new mega corp applying pressure for exclusive trade agreements. A nephew or neice has run off with people with a bad rep and needs recovering before the family name suffers even if they want to be with the cult/father or mother of their child/adventuring group they ran off to join. You can go of on space adventures but they tend to be short and relate to the home world though there is plenty of scope in a busy system for adventures without ever needing to jump.

Mobile is traveller adventurers but with more class and servants. A stipend and use of one of the families small liners or luxury transports not some grubby trader that has to actually work to pay the bills.

Noble adventures are much the same as commoner adventures, its the outlook of the people that changes things so plan accordingly.

 

[rust]

It seems to me the basic concept behind Traveller's nobility is
that of an orderly bureaucracy where people are appointed to
some government post for life and the number of people thus
appointed is more or less identical to the number of available
posts.

Unfortunately a feudal aristocracy is less tidy. For example, no-
bles often have several children, and they will want a title for
each of their children, preferably a title which reflects the sta-
tus of the family. So, no lowly Knighthood for the daughter of
a Count, she has to be at least a Baroness. If there is no free
slot in the Imperium's feudal system, one has to be created -
if necessary, she could become the Baroness of some barren
planet or some gas giant in the outer system. Her children then
would inherit that title, and in the case of several children fur-
ther titles would have to be created - after a couple of genera-
tions even the gas giant's moons would have their lords and la-
dies, all with nice noble titles, but hardly any income from their
fiefs.

To have all those children, nobles usually marry, and preferably
other nobles of a similar degree of nobility. This also tends to ma-
ke things complicated. If the Baron of A and the Baroness of B
marry, their heir normally inherits both titles, he becomes the Ba-
ron of A and B - no matter whether A and B are in the same sys-
tem, or even the same Subsector. This tends to make a map in-
teresting, not far from here we have a village once owned by an
Austrian family and a small town once owned by the English Marl-
borough family, the city of Bari in southern Italy once was a part
of Poland, and so on.

Using a historical concept for the setting's nobility does not result
in the Imperium's orderly system, but at least in my view it makes
that entire nobility thing feel a lot more plausible, and it also offers
a lot more interesting options for nobles in the game. A Baron can
be the ruler of several rich planets, or of one backwater planet, or
even of one barren gas giant moon, depending on his family's histo-
ry. He can be filthy rich and incredibly powerful, or a sleazy smugg-
ler who inherited nothing but a nice title and now has to make so-
me living - if he is really unlucky, he may even have to work. A
few years ago I worked with a nurse who was a Baroness ...

 

[Captain Jonah]

You can also stack up (or Down in this way)

The countess of Summerfields and her daughter Baroness Summerfield both from the same world. THe daughters personal fief is a city and lands while the mother technicaly rules the entire world except the domain of her daughter.

If you play the Imperium as a dark and dangerous place full of untrustworthy (adventurers) types nobles will compete against each other and scheme and backstab as much as the megacorps do.

All those adventures with that bad guy being a middle level megacorp type can be rerun or modified with the bad guy a noble out to rebuild his families estates/wealth/honour. Noble fueds that go back to the founding of the 3rdI, no one remembers why they started but the noble house of Summerfield has suffered many raids in recent years, the count himself died in a space action leading his hurscarls in the defence of a vital trade convoy. In return the countess hired privateers who struck at noble house Tormay's shipping and killed count Tormays only son.

A virtual war kept secret because neither family wants direct intervention by the Sector duke, this is a matter of family honour after all. These two systems could be side by side or several parsecs apart. Heck for some real action they could be an inner world and a habitable moon of the gas giant and the whole thing involces sub light craft.

Think Dune, or other such universes where lesser family members are trusted to serve and to act as family agents in the war. Hurscarles who have served decades commanded by the 18 year old nephew who has just been given command of the 100Dton SDB guarding the mining base on asteroid 734-b. Family are put in the critcal jobs not because of skill, they pick that up as they go, but becasue family loyalty is considered absolute. After all if the other side catchs you they will kill you slowly in revenge for something your great grandfather did.

By the same token if you are looking at a snob level of long established noble houses, they will want a member of the bloodline at those trade negociations not some common servant. The lesser house that calls for aid against a rival will be insulted in noble house Summerfield sends a bunch of hirelings in a grubby trader (standard traveller characters) but if the house sends the young lord (nephew to the countess herself) commanding a small team of skilled but nodescript types then they see how highly the countess values an alliance between them (and the countess shows that she values them and wants that alliance even if the young lord in question is an idiot she would be happy to lose).

Intrigue, plots, feuds, outright wars. The mega corps may be big enough to work around the law but when it is the nobles who make the laws (and can blatantly ignore them till a more powerful noble steps in) many things become possible.

 

[atpollard]

Does anyone remember Professor Higgins from 'My Fair Lady'?

I always thought that he would be a fun aristocrat to play.

(yes, I am old.)

 

[Reynard]

I think people are overcomplicating Traveller again. We're talking a game that's often played space opera than hardcore science. That should include sociology too.

Now, on our Earth in our history, there are still countries that have nobility and royalty even though it should be an outdated relic. People of noble families walk the streets dressed like other people, abeit well tailored. At least from my american view, England hands out far too many knighthoods to regular people. That makes nobility less special and restrictive. In the Imperium, there is a gigantic fuedal system pervading the galaxy. Nobility is everywhere in an orderly heirarchy. This concept of nobility at a dime a dozen should be much more common.

Becoming nobility should be a lot easier if there's so much nobility to start. As the book states it's about a place in society. Again on our Earth, famous and powerful people in government, business, religion and entertainment are high up in the social order and don't have a noble titles. Some, as I stated earlier, do recieve one based more on popularity than deed. In Traveller character creation, gaining a higher SOC should represent merit and recognition by deeds and notoriety and that could lead to an honorary title.

In other words, your character has fame if not fortune.

 

[steelbrok]

Here is a radical idea :lol:
Well ok its been mentioned a time or ten here before


Separate the Noble ranks for SOC completely.
SOC gives you a stat used for personal interaction, Diplomacy, Broker, Streetwise all use this stat.
Take the entire noble and economic class structure and move it off to one side.
Go through the noble career and you are a noble or from a noble family. Go through the navy and you had a bit of work done to achieve that dashing poster boy look on the recruiting vids (besides it’s the romance of the career not your face that draws people in)
.

I like this idea

 

[Golan2072]

I tend to play in non-OTU ATUs where there are no Nobles per se, and high-soc characters are celebrities, successful businessmen, generals and politicians, people with a lot of social clout but without a formal title other than their job title (which is rarely for life unless we're talking about some backwater planet's "President For Life")...

 

[rust]

Now, on our Earth in our history, there are still countries that have nobility and royalty even though it should be an outdated relic.

It is a part of the culture, just like ancient temples, medieval castles or
gothic cathedrals. What is left of the European nobility, now minus their
political power, is as much an outdated relic as the Statue of Liberty or
the Daughters of the American Revolution. :wink:

 

[BP]

Always used Soc as a stat (in CT) that helped in social skill checks - more like charisma. At most, the PC got a title - but that was it.

For financial negotiations - actually pretty rare in my games, which rarely even bother to concern themselves with coin, er, credits - I have used 'compounded opposing' DMs. Ex: a Knight (+1 DM) dealing with a scumbag* (-2 DM) often ends up with a -3 DM. I.e. the 'Knight' will be taken advantage of more, or will take more advantage of, the scumbag.

Dilettante, I'm pretty sure, makes some use of Soc and expands upon wealth and privilege.

[*Bytepro's expanded DM based social titles: commoner (0); lowlife (-1); scumbag (-2); lowlife scumbag (-3). Any may be scoundrels ]

 

[Hans Rancke]

It seems to me the basic concept behind Traveller's nobility is that of an orderly bureaucracy where people are appointed to some government post for life and the number of people thus appointed is more or less identical to the number of available posts.

The Imperium's nobility is tri-partite. Theye are high nobles, rank nobles, and honour nobles. High nobles have a function as interface between the Imperium and the member worlds. In theory, there is one per member world, but in practice some nobles double up on the titles, like Norris who is both the Marquis of Regina and the Baron of Yori. Rank nobles are commoners who is given a noble title to qualify them for some high Imperial office (A fairly limited number of Imperial offices require the holder to have a particular noble rank (or higher). Obviously these offices are usually filled by pre-existing nobles, but when a commoner is the obvious choice, he gets a rank nobility). This may or may not be a lifetime peerage. Honour nobles are rewared for service to the Imperium by being ennobled or have their noble rank raised.

Unfortunately a feudal aristocracy is less tidy.

Fortunately, the Imperial nobility isn't a feudal aristocracy. Despite canonical statements to that effect, the Imperium as actually described is not a feudal structure; it is an autocracy with some pseudo-feudal trappings.

For example, nobles often have several children, and they will want a title for each of their children, preferably a title which reflects the status of the family. So, no lowly Knighthood for the daughter of a Count, she has to be at least a Baroness. If there is no free slot in the Imperium's feudal system, one has to be created - if necessary, she could become the Baroness of some barren planet or some gas giant in the outer system. Her children then would inherit that title, and in the case of several children further titles would have to be created - after a couple of genera-
tions even the gas giant's moons would have their lords and ladies, all with nice noble titles, but hardly any income from their fiefs.

That's not how historical nobilities have worked and there's no evidence to suggest that the Imperium works like that. In England, if a noble held several titles, some of them would be used, as a courtesy, by his heirs. His direct heir would use his second most important title, the next in line would use the third, and so on. Note that if the heir had a son of his own, the toddler would use that third title, not the heir's younger brother (who had used it until the birth of the little tyke but was now reduce to being a mere Honourable). In Europe, evey son of a noble inherited his title, which led to all sorts of problems, noble often being exempt from taxation.

The Imperium seems to be closer to the post-feudal British system of titles going to just one heir and some titles being lifetime titles that are not inherited at all. The high nobles are entirely without historical precedence, since their titles are mostly associated with worlds they don't own and their function isn't to run the worlds. (Yes, some hereditary world rulers have been given the high noble title of their world, but that's the other way around -- the Emperor isn't giving the rulership of the world to the ruler, he's making an after-the-fact acknowlegdement of the existing conditions).


Hans

 

[Hans Rancke]

Now, on our Earth in our history, there are still countries that have nobility and royalty even though it should be an outdated relic. People of noble families walk the streets dressed like other people, abeit well tailored. At least from my american view, England hands out far too many knighthoods to regular people. That makes nobility less special and restrictive. In the Imperium, there is a gigantic fuedal system pervading the galaxy. Nobility is everywhere in an orderly heirarchy. This concept of nobility at a dime a dozen should be much more common.

21st Century nobility seems less special precisely because it is outdated. Even so, royalty is still good for paparazzi attention. The Imperium, OTOH, has an extremely small number of nobles with prestige surpassing that of Earth's most powerful government leaders today. Those are not dime a dozen nobles. Those are the peers and superiors of kings and emperors.

Becoming nobility should be a lot easier if there's so much nobility to start.

There is less than one Imperial high noble for every billion people in the Imperium.

Im' not saying that d'Artagnan type nobles aren't useful for roleplaying. They are. I'm saying that Imperial nobles aren't generally suitable for the role of a d'Artagnan type noble. Note the qualification. I'm sure one can come up with exceptions -- indeed, I'm sure I could come up with exceptions -- but generally they're not suitable.

Planetary nobility, OTOH, would offer a rich and varied source of such characters. Which is why I think it's a pity and a shame that Traveller doesn't give them the treatment they deserve.


Hans

 

[Reynard]

Had to check the basic character creation and very few careers really encourage one to become nobility. Seriously, if you put your 11+ score into SOC then go to Citizen, Drifter or Rogue, you better have a good explanation.

The various militaries, especially Navy, seems to be at least feasible to advance into nobility. That seems historical. Entertainers have a decent chance to promote into the 10+ range of nobility which reinforces my idea that the actual SOC attribute is a measure of fame and reputation rather than automatically being noble. Elton John and Paul McCartney were just lucky to get both.

Speaking of which I look at the Nobility career and there it is! Personally, the 21st century businessperson is nobility in everything but name. Tell me politicians don't consiter themselves as a form of royalty. In Traveller we call them, respectively, Administrators and Diplomats. A Duke is a business CEO or a government President. Dilettantes are still just spoiled rich kids.

So a player character shouldn't have to wear finely tailored suits and a chestful of metals and have a mansion or palace just because they go above 9 in SOC unless they have a concept to explain it (The Gentleman Rogue). You're just reeeeal good and people know it.