Hobbits and Halflings

[ryhopewood]

Hi all

Currently revisiting my MRQ2 conversion for the d20 Midnight setting and once again I am pondering the SIZ characteristic for humanoids and for hobbits or halflings in particular. In Monsters of Legend and RQ6 the average SIZ for halflings is quite high (7 to 8 ) and doesn't match the Midnight setting or Tolkien version of this diminutive race.

The Midnight setting book gives the adult halfling as typically 90 cm tall and about 16 kg in weight. This is pretty close to the height and weight of a five year old child. Converting this to SIZ based on mass in kg (see table in RQ6 or older versions of RQ prior to MRQ) gives a value of SIZ 3. A reasonable distribution can be achieved using 2D2 for deriving this characteristic but I am wondering whether the resulting character is so frail that their survival chances in the harsh world of Legend or RQ6 is negligible. In other words, is this straightforward conversion of the halfling from d20 to Legend simply highlighting how ridiculous the d20 version is and hence the reason why the halflings in Monsters of Legend are noticeably bigger* ?

Thoughts appreciated,

Ian

* SIZ 7 / 8 corresponds to a mass of around 50 kg which is close to the typical mass of a 14 or 15 year old boy rather than the smaller folk described by Tolkien and D&D alike.

 

[Lord High Munchkin]

You are right... it does show up how "fantastical" that d20 setting is.

An adult short hobbit/haefling/halfling is going to be quite robust, although short. 50 kg isn't unreasonable as the necessary skeletons are not really reducible beyond a certain point, and organs have a practical weight that they can't go below. Some individuals will be lighter, but the dice range already allows for that.

Ultimately you could say "it's magic" as a rationalisation in order to match the d20 version... and in the end it is entirely your game to alter as you wish, but personally I'd take the more realistic path.

 

[Lord High Munchkin]

Of course another tack would be to use the physical characteristic rolls from another creature (such as a Runner or a Sprite) with the POW, INT and CHA of a hobbit/haelfling/halfling.

 

[ryhopewood]

You are right... it does show up how "fantastical" that d20 setting is.

An adult short hobbit/haefling/halfling is going to be quite robust, although short. 50 kg isn't unreasonable as the necessary skeletons are not really reducible beyond a certain point, and organs have a practical weight that they can't go below. Some individuals will be lighter, but the dice range already allows for that.

Ultimately you could say "it's magic" as a rationalisation in order to match the d20 version... and in the end it is entirely your game to alter as you wish, but personally I'd take the more realistic path.

Thanks for the useful feedback. I think the SIZ is reasonable to support the basic skeleton and organs since we all develop from children into adults. The key thing would be to scale STR accordingly as it should reflect muscle mass. Clearly the d20 reduction of -2 to STR isn't going to be enough. It could be argued that CON would also be reduced but it is not beyond reason to say that immunity systems, pain thresholds, and other body functions are more robust. Survivability would greatly depend on avoiding getting hit and talking your way out of trouble. Nonetheless I might up it to an average SIZ of 5, which is the value used by Classic Fantasy for BRP.

 

[Prime_Evil]

Hi all

Currently revisiting my MRQ2 conversion for the d20 Midnight setting.

Ooohhh....Midnight is an awesome setting. I'd love to see this eventually

 

[Olaus Petrus]

I think that Legend's halfling size is in line with the rest of the Legend's creature stats. Halfiling's average size is exactly half of human's average size. And while halfling's are bigger than ordinary dogs they are smaller than war dogs, most apes and dwarves.

Legend doesn't explicitly state how many kilograms or centimeters one point of size is and I assume that there is some variation, because size represents both height and weight and I think it's just there to give general idea what the creature's body mass is rather than telling the exact kilograms or centimeters. Even if Tolkien style hobbit shares same size with a small human, it's likely that the hobbit is shorter, because Tolkien says that hobbits have stout body (i. e. some of the size points simulate hobbit's heavier body structure).

I guess you could create imp like halflings with SIZ 1-4 if you want smaller creatures, but you would have to alter other stats too like STR and CON to portray the weakness of the smaller body. And that would have serious gameplay consequences as they would be weaker than your average pet dogs and in my opinion unsuitable for player characters because of their general weakness and abysmal hit points.

 

[warlock1971]

I think that Legend's halfling size is in line with the rest of the Legend's creature stats. Halfiling's average size is exactly half of human's average size. And while halfling's are bigger than ordinary dogs they are smaller than war dogs, most apes and dwarves.

Legend doesn't explicitly state how many kilograms or centimeters one point of size is and I assume that there is some variation, because size represents both height and weight and I think it's just there to give general idea what the creature's body mass is rather than telling the exact kilograms or centimeters. Even if Tolkien style hobbit shares same size with a small human, it's likely that the hobbit is shorter, because Tolkien says that hobbits have stout body (i. e. some of the size points simulate hobbit's heavier body structure).

I guess you could create imp like halflings with SIZ 1-4 if you want smaller creatures, but you would have to alter other stats too like STR and CON to portray the weakness of the smaller body. And that would have serious gameplay consequences as they would be weaker than your average pet dogs and in my opinion unsuitable for player characters because of their general weakness and abysmal hit points.

I can't see a benefit to playing a halfling, as listed in the Monsters book.

 

[Olaus Petrus]

I think that Legend's halfling size is in line with the rest of the Legend's creature stats. Halfiling's average size is exactly half of human's average size. And while halfling's are bigger than ordinary dogs they are smaller than war dogs, most apes and dwarves.

Legend doesn't explicitly state how many kilograms or centimeters one point of size is and I assume that there is some variation, because size represents both height and weight and I think it's just there to give general idea what the creature's body mass is rather than telling the exact kilograms or centimeters. Even if Tolkien style hobbit shares same size with a small human, it's likely that the hobbit is shorter, because Tolkien says that hobbits have stout body (i. e. some of the size points simulate hobbit's heavier body structure).

I guess you could create imp like halflings with SIZ 1-4 if you want smaller creatures, but you would have to alter other stats too like STR and CON to portray the weakness of the smaller body. And that would have serious gameplay consequences as they would be weaker than your average pet dogs and in my opinion unsuitable for player characters because of their general weakness and abysmal hit points.

I can't see a benefit to playing a halfling, as listed in the Monsters book.

Roleplaying reasons. There's no stat based reason for playing as goblin or Gloranthan duck either. But some people like to play as them.

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

Typically smaller creatures will have a higher DEX, so while the SIZ, STR and perhaps CON will be lower, they will have a higher DEX, which has its own roleplaying possibilities (Hobbits are good thieves...).

Low SIZ has its advantages within certain skills as well (stealth etc.), so as long as the Hobbit stays away from the Orc with the Battle Axe (unless he has a nice glowing shortsword), there are useful roles for them to play within a diverse party of PCs.

 

[soltakss]

I would have thought that a halfling would have been short and stout, or at least tubby. A weight of 16kg seems awfully low to me. Perhaps Midnight halflings are not the same as Tolkeiny ones.

 

[ryhopewood]

I would have thought that a halfling would have been short and stout, or at least tubby. A weight of 16kg seems awfully low to me. Perhaps Midnight halflings are not the same as Tolkeiny ones.

I would agree that Tolkien's hobbits were well built and the Midnight version appear to be a bit slim (but as discussed below I don't think this really changes the SIZ).

According to wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobbit, the average height of a hobbit is 1.07 m (3 ft 6") as described in the Lord of the Rings prologue. Using the helpful Height and Size chart for humans / humanoids from RQ6 (page 14), this suggests SIZ 4. A lithe frame has a mass between 16 - 20 kg and a heavy frame between 28 - 36 kg. Obviously a Tolkien hobbit would have a 'heavy frame'.

Interestingly according to the RQ6 table, SIZ 7 has a height of 141 - 150 cm and SIZ 8 a height between 151 - 155 cm. Being only 5 ft 4" (160 cm) myself, this suggests I am only a little bigger than the average SIZ of a halfling in RQ6 / Legend. Not sure they are really Tolkien's little people. I don't really see myself as a hobbit.

RQ6 for humans seems to use height as a fixed guide for SIZ with weight varying according to frame. As hobbits are likely to be short and stocky humanoids, close to human design, then it might be better to use the Height and Weight table for humans as a basis for setting average SIZ for halflings, gnomes etc. Still an average height of 90cm is still SIZ 3; even though a heavy frame would push the weight to 19 - 27 kg.

 

[Olaus Petrus]

I would have thought that a halfling would have been short and stout, or at least tubby. A weight of 16kg seems awfully low to me. Perhaps Midnight halflings are not the same as Tolkeiny ones.

I would agree that Tolkien's hobbits were well built and the Midnight version appear to be a bit slim (but as discussed below I don't think this really changes the SIZ).

According to wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobbit, the average height of a hobbit is 1.07 m (3 ft 6") as described in the Lord of the Rings prologue. Using the helpful Height and Size chart for humans / humanoids from RQ6 (page 14), this suggests SIZ 4. A lithe frame has a mass between 16 - 20 kg and a heavy frame between 28 - 36 kg. Obviously a Tolkien hobbit would have a 'heavy frame'.

Interestingly according to the RQ6 table, SIZ 7 has a height of 141 - 150 cm and SIZ 8 a height between 151 - 155 cm. Being only 5 ft 4" (160 cm) myself, this suggests I am only a little bigger than the average SIZ of a halfling in RQ6 / Legend. Not sure they are really Tolkien's little people. I don't really see myself as a hobbit.

RQ6 for humans seems to use height as a fixed guide for SIZ with weight varying according to frame. As hobbits are likely to be short and stocky humanoids, close to human design, then it might be better to use the Height and Weight table for humans as a basis for setting average SIZ for halflings, gnomes etc. Still an average height of 90cm is still SIZ 3; even though a heavy frame would push the weight to 19 - 27 kg.

Don't take such charts literally. Halfiling's size is exactly half of human size, which sounds about right. Size range of halflings is 4-9, so only tallest are as big as small humans, because 8 is human minimum size. Even if we take your chart literally, then human whose size is 7 would have medical condition known as dwarfism. If you think that d6+3 is too much then just change the dice to d4+3 that would give you hobbits whose size range is 4-7 or d3+3 which would give you size range 4-6, but remember that size reduction affects to halfling's hit points, damage modifier and brawn skill.

 

[ryhopewood]

Don't take such charts literally. Halfiling's size is exactly half of human size, which sounds about right. Size range of halflings is 4-9, so only tallest are as big as small humans, because 8 is human minimum size. Even if we take your chart literally, then human whose size is 7 would have medical condition known as dwarfism. If you think that d6+3 is too much then just change the dice to d4+3 that would give you hobbits whose size range is 4-7 or d3+3 which would give you size range 4-6, but remember that size reduction affects to halfling's hit points, damage modifier and brawn skill.

I think you are right. I'm going to go with a average SIZ of 4 - 8 (average 6) on a 2D3 + 2 roll. Another pet peeve of mine is uniform distributions like d3 + 3! But that is a whole other thread ...

Thanks for the advice and helping me to realise that SIZ is an art not a science.

 

[soltakss]

Thanks for the advice and helping me to realise that SIZ is an art not a science.

When you've finished with little things, have a look at very big things and you will see that this is doubly true.