Grow your own Shadows

[Slightly Norse John]

No,I'm not seriously suggesting spraying Harvestman Spiders with plastikote- although it might get me into less trouble than doing more tinkering.

What I do suggest is that we take a look at the idea that shadow ships grow, and try hashing out some numbers on that basis to see if they make sense.

Looking at the fleet at the moment;
Shadow Scout, purpose; officially stated as pure recon.
Does this actually make sense? As the only choice at a middling level, it gets shoved into the role of jack-of-all-trades a lot. As such, as it gets older, it should start to grow into that.

In stat terms, three different versions of each ship. A youth, at a lower PL; a mature version, at- probably the PL they had in the tourney lists, and something close to the stats; an elder of the race, at a higher PL. So an elder shadow ship would indeed be Armageddon PL.
An immature Shadow Scout would be much closer to being a pure scout, at Skirmish level, possibly with higher speed and reduced damage and weaponry. The mature version would be the armed recon unit we see in the tourney lists, an elder scout would be a ship with a great deal of experience at getting shot at and having to shoot back and would need to be uprated to Battle level.

Battle PL would actually get crowded for the Shadows, then, with an elder scout, a mature hunter, and a juvenile ship all competing as choices; there would need to be clear water between them, to make them each appropriate for a different purpose. That could be fun.

Anyway, to give you an idea of what I'm on about, the Scout;

Juvenile (skirmish)
Speed 10, SM and sprint, adv JP and hyperspace mastery,
Self- repair 2D6, (they bounce back fast- they're kids after all), Scout (unlimited range as per the Delphi seems only fair, +1 vs stealth for ancient tech), Stealth 5+ (they're smaller)
Hull 4, damage 50 as per usual shadow rules, 20 after throwing them away
Phasing pulse cannon; range 8, F, 4AD, Double damage super AP Anti- fighter

Adult (Raid)
Speed 9, SM and sprint, adv JP and hyperspace mastery,
self repair D6, Scout (unlimited range, +1 for ancient tech), Stealth 4+
Hull 5, damage 75 (book version) or 30
Phasing Pulse Cannon; range 8, F, 6AD, Double damage super AP Anti-fighter

Elder (Battle)
Speed 8 (getting older, slowing down), SM and sprint, adv JP and hyperspace mastery
Self repair 2D6, Scout (unlimited range, +1 for ancient tech, suggestion; the fluff mentions shadows scanning from hyperspace- without appearing on the table. Allow this?)
Hull 5, damage 100 (book version) or 45
Phasing Pulse Cannon; range 12, F, 8AD, Double damage super AP Antifighter

I think some of the issues with the Dilgar rebuilds prove that I do need somebody standing behind me to stop me when I'm done
Commentary on this lot?

 

[Lord David the Denied]

I like it. Good concept, well executed.

 

[animus]

Very nice. I approve

 

[angelus2000]

same for the most part. I'd possible suggest bumping all 3 down a PL, but the only reason I'd have for doing so is to avoid crowding at Battle PL

 

[Slightly Norse John]

Thanks guys.
Friday evening through to Saturday is my busiest gaming time, so it'll be a while before I can follow this up, but I'll keep thinking about it.
Further out on the scale, actually, there would seem to be lots of room to play with youth and elder shadow fighters, and the possibility of an elder Shadow Cloud could be, well, interesting :twisted:

 

[Locutus9956]

I like em. For the record Angelus there is no crowding at Battle, in the up to date shadow list in Armageddon the hunter goes up to war an the shadows dont have a battle choice. (The Shadowship goes up to Armageddon)

 

[frobisher]

Very nice idea

Now if Mongoose would release some of the FA scale Shadows, that would give you a chance to have the the "younger" versions of the miniatures, and if they re-release the full scale Shadow Fighter, you've maybe got a progression for the fighters as well to frigates..?

Though if they ever produced the Dreadnought in full scale (rather than FA scale only as AoG did), that would be sweet (Same applies to the Vorlon Dreadnought - need a full scale one of those too...).

 

[Ripple]

Hate to be the curmdgen (especially given I can't seem to spell it) but...

The Juvenile seems to too good. The unlimited range of the Delphi is a big upgrade of these ships from the current form. They are much hardier than a Delphi and your giving it to a ship that will be seen in even greater numbers. It is much more manueverable and much more resilient. Try playing against this ship, with stealth 5+ and 2d6 of self repair if I do not kill it in the first shot I should not expect to kill it ever.

Special defenses magnify each othe. Stealth and self repair in particular have a nice relationship, combining enhanced versions of both means you cannot go down a level in pl unless the ship has much less damage... closer to the half than the 2/3 you have listed. Remember this ship will keep range from the rest of the fleet, still has sprint so can overfly or outrun anything in the game, so stealth will not be reduced and may be a 6+ to shoot fairly often. With 35 points this ship would killable by big lasers fairly easily.

With unlimited range scouting the ships becomes a companion ship to every larger vessel operating as an initiative sink and still contributing from across the board. This makes the SM larger ships virtually untargetable in larger fights were these ships will appear in numbers. Shadows have not been balanced with an available skirmish hull to act in this role. I want try a few games with this before I want applaud or gasp.

* Thinking about it I would drop the Self-repair down to 1D6 and leave stealth alone, maybe give it a dodge of 5 or 6+. This gives you an unreliable defense which will not enhance the effect of the self-repair dramatically, and is not further enhanced by the new Delphi like positioning the ship will take in big battles. At that point a skirmish ship from another race sent to hunt it down might be able to actually kill it. At your point values I would need to get twelvish hits in one turn with a single damage weapon to kill it, or half again after that with self-repair and dodge (so throwing twice that in dice over two turns since one will fail to stealth). Those are good numbers for a skirmish ship.

All that aside I really enjoyed the Raid and Battle level versions, my only reservation being the Delphi like ability to go hide in a corner without the limited manuever, damage or firepower of the Delphi.

Ripple

 

[Shadow Queen]

The Juvenile i'll take it goes "I want my mommy!!!!"

How about a mommy one?

 

[andrewgpaul]

The rules look OK, but do we really need to go with the idiotic 'growing spaceships' thing? please?

 

[Target]

The rules look OK, but do we really need to go with the idiotic 'growing spaceships' thing? please?

How else to you get organic ships ?

 

[Silvereye]

Giant pea pod type things?

 

[CodeofArms]

Weren't their Promordial versions of shadow ships in B5 Wars?

 

[Shadow Queen]

How about Shadow seeding ships?

 

[captainsmirk]

Just as a note about some of the some of the older versions you've put up.

There is on screen evidence (From Into the Fire i think) of a "scout" firing a molecular slicer beam...

AoG did a variant of their Destroyer (which was a scout hull with no ELINT abilities and more weapons) to represent it.

Nick

 

[andrewgpaul]

The rules look OK, but do we really need to go with the idiotic 'growing spaceships' thing? please?

How else to you get organic ships ?

There's a difference between 'organic' and 'alive. take a look at a flight base if you don't believe me

Although, I doubt the writer of B5 appreciated that particular bit of scientific jargon. Anyway, I'm fine with components of the ships being 'grown', and then assembled into a whole vessel, or perhaps even whole ships being grown (and by 'grown', I mean something akin to a coral reef - the 'skeleton' reef is the product of living organisms, but is not itself alive), but the idea that a little baby Shadow destroyer can grow up to be a great big dreadnought if it eats all its greens is, to me, stupid.

 

[frobisher]

but the idea that a little baby Shadow destroyer can grow up to be a great big dreadnought if it eats all its greens is, to me, stupid.

Erm, no that wasn't what SNJ was suggesting - it was different grades of the same ship.

 

[Slightly Norse John]

Basically so; I was using the 'it grows' bit as, in essence, fluff.

[Rant mode] Biological heavy engineering is so far fetched anyway, as Bethe said, 'It isn't even wrong.' Calling it stupid is actually pretty high praise. What I use as a lookup reference is Steven Vogel's 'Cats' Paws and Catapults', which runs the numbers and makes the distinctions. Some things, nature really is better at, and 'organic' technology can do well in. Small scale efficiencies, complexity, chemistry. Nature does not know the concept of the heat engine. Manufactured things are larger, tougher, and basically better at dealing with large quantities of energy. A spaceship would feature extremely high on the list of things organic technology is poorly adapted to do, and inappropriate for. Organic tech is a brain bug; a meme, spreading through science fiction. It is, practically speaking, gibberish.

On the other hand...this is science fiction. Organic technology is an important verging on critical part of this particular show and it's spawn, we cannot get rid of it and still call what's left Babylon 5. It's a fun game. So it makes no sense at all; I know this, and I don't care. We're playing in the world of the series. Suspend disbelief, and enjoy. [/rant mode]

A shadow seeding ship- it would be a whole cloth design, and what exactly would it do? There's a large rules hole I'd like to patch with it; planetary assault and defence for ancients- them, at least. It would be nice to have something that could actually be played out, instead of a flat 'no.' I'm happy to tinker with ship designs, maybe too happy, but trying to write, rewrite and/or add actual rules is seldom less than controversial. That would require more hashing out.

Tinkering- I think I actually forgot to note Stealth for the elder version of the Shadow Scout. So stealthy, you didn't notice it wasn't there...4+.
Unlimited range, I would actually rather see go to the elder species who have spent as many millennia researching it as the humans have days. It's the Delphi I don't like; something paradigm- breaking like that shouldn't be a cheap gimmick for a newborn race, humans or not. Flight Computer, which they do have, I left out of the stat listing; the only part of the trait that actually applies is minimum CQ, and I reckon it could be more elegantly dealt with as a race special than as a trait 2/3 of which is irrelevant to the use.

Statwise...the Shadow Fighter is all I can wrap my head around at the moment. I'm feeling lightheaded from lack of sleep. I reckon the Shadow Ship should keep it's T arc- it's as much a terror weapon, to intimidate and overawe, as it is a fighting unit, so making the stats mirror that is going to be entertaining, too. Elder Shadow Ships I can see a problem with already- I'm going to want it to justify itself. If it's that absurdly pricy, it should be spectacularly good at killing things. Shadow Clouds I have only the edges of an idea for.

Adult Shadow Fighters; 3 per wing
Speed 12, SM, hull 4, dogfight 0, Adv JP, Atmospheric, dodge 3+, Fighter
Polarity Cannon- range 2, T 2AD AP Double damage
(as per Armageddon really; should they be improved?)

Young Shadow Fighters; 4 per wing
Speed 14, SM, hull 3, dogfight +1, Adv JP, Atmospheric, dodge 3+, Fighter
Polarity Cannon- range 2, T, 1AD AP Double damage

Elder Shadow Fighters; 2 per wing
Speed 10, SM, hull 5, dogfight 0, adv JP, atmospheric, dodge 3+, Fighter
Phasing Polarity Cannon- range 3, T, 2AD, AP Double damage Antifighter

My brain is not in full flight, and I may regret this post later.

 

[Ripple]

My only issue with the 'unlimited range' was not in any way fluff based, but balance based. I was wondering if having sinks that can literally hide in a corner would change the dynamics of the race in unforseen ways. Like I said I would like to test it.

I agree on the fluff perspective that it would make way more sense for any major rule breaking technology to be ancient tech and not something those upstart humans have. Espescially when we have littel evidence in the show of such technology. That whole humans in a game setting effect.

Ripple

 

[Slightly Norse John]

It's going to be more of an issue for the youth, Skirmish level anyway; there's little it can do to justify itself as a choice other than use it's scouting abilities. Adult and, especially, Elder are important enough, even at the Shadows' costings, that they will be a lot nearer the fighting- granting them the ability, while they physically could stand off, it's only in very big games they're going to be able to afford to.

It would not be that massive a stretch to give all scouts a measurement anyway, indicating how far they actually can scan. Playing with that would be an interesting balancing factor to restrict certain races' (erm, mine) hordes of patrol level scouts; restrict their scan to somewhere between 12" and 18". Larger or more dedicated ships get better scan reach, the Oracle would be primitively short ranged, etc.