Grimoires in Glorantha

[Deleriad]

A recent answer from Loz got me wondering about how Grimoires actually work in Glorantha.

Does a Grimoire have to be present to cast a spell from it?

Does a Grimoire have to be a written document?

My current understanding is that a Grimoire is basically the equivalent of a manual and thus provides the mechanical instructions for casting a spell but does not provide the ability to do so. I'm no longer sure if this is the case. As an analogy, if I have Spanish for Dummies and make a copy for myself, the act of copying it into my own version won't teach me Spanish; to learn to speak Spanish I have to spend time practising, committing words and grammar to memory and so on.

So my basic question is, is my understanding right or wrong?

 

[khazwind]

I could be wrong. I could be VERY wrong, but my feeling about grimoires is:

a) It's a phrasebook. I read the Grimoire and I learn a couple of spells, whatever spells are in there. I can cast these at a basic level. I don't need the book to cast them.

b) It's a manual. I can study the book and learn certain rituals. I can perform these to cast my spells (the ones I learned from the book) at higher levels. I need the book to do this.

c) It's a study aid. Grimoires contain a shed-load of ancient wisdom, probably more than an average mortal could fully comprehend, written over the years, added to, edited etc. I can study and increase my abilities with my spells, maybe even discover a new spell hidden between the lines.

Plus, let's not forget the most important use of a Grimoire. It's something to put my coffee cup on so I don't stain the table.

 

[Blackyinkin]

Hi,

In our Esvulari Campaign one of our players possessed an iron bound grimoire on a sturdy chain which was used on more than one occasion to beat the word of the prophet into the infidel Praxians.

Simon

 

[StephenT]

A grimoire is a book of spells, but it's also a powerful magical artefact in its own right. A sorceror needs to attune himself to a grimoire and study it carefully, often for many years. (In game terms: acquire a skill or ability related to it). By doing this, he learns to draw on the power of the grimoire to cast any of the spells in it, as long as the grimoire is in his physical possession.

He can also learn the spells in the grimoire as separate abilities/skills, and cast them at any time without needing the grimoire with him. This is more flexible, but he must have skill in each spell, and must draw upon his own personal power only. He can write down instructions for these spells, and that would be a "spell book", but it wouldn't be a grimoire because the book has no inherent power of its own.

Many grimoires are ancient and sacred artefacts. A new sorceror will often create a copy of his master's grimoire as part of his apprenticeship, but it will only be a mundane book of spells, not a magical artefact, until he conducts the powerful rituals needed to enchant it as part of his final test of ability. Actually creating a new grimoire from scratch, rather than copying an existing one, requires dangerous experimental HeroQuesting and is only done by powerful heroes and saints.

Most grimoires are books because that's the most convenient method of recording and transporting information. Some grimoires are not only spellbooks, but also have mundane text with the spells mixed in amongst it - the Abiding Book is both a grimoire and the main book of holy scripture for the Malkioni faith, for example. In some cases the spells might even be hidden in the text and require careful study to discover - for example, reading every seventh word in a particular chapter might be the way to cast one particular spell.

Having said that, there's no theoretical reason why a grimoire has to be a book. It could be symbols woven into a tapestry, or carved into rock, or laid out in the shape of paths in a huge formal garden. Or carved in mile-long glyphs onto the side of a mountain, or seen in the shape of a hundred islands when viewed from a mile up in the sky - this is Glorantha, after all. It's just that books are more portable.


(Note: this answer was mostly based on how grimoires are described in 'HeroQuest'. MRQ may do it differently.)

 

[Deleriad]

A grimoire is a book of spells, but it's also a powerful magical artefact in its own right.
...

(Note: this answer was mostly based on how grimoires are described in 'HeroQuest'. MRQ may do it differently.)

Thanks for this. My problem is that I am no longer sure how MRQ does Grimoires. In Cults Vol II, the Read (Grimoire) skill is introduced as the skill you use to cast all spells contained in your order/school's Grimoire but that was really all it said. There was no ritual for copying your master's grimoire and so on. However, Cults II was badly mangled in the editing process so there may be *meant* to be more to it. Basically the grimoire as a powerful magical artifact element in its own right was not present.

 

[Rurik]

My understanding is as follows based on Cults, some reading of HeroQuest/Stafford Library material (I am not NOT that familiar with HQ mind you), and discussions on various boards/groups:

Each School/Order/Sect has it's own Grimoire, which is essentially their 'cult spell book'. Being sorcery the 'cult spells' are stored in a spellbook - the Grimoire.

Each Grimoire is written in a code of sorts, a secret known only to members of the order (the Read Grimoire skill). So you need to have at least competency in the Read Grimoire skill to learn cult spells through study.

They are more than spell books, containing creeds, secrets, and history of the order, etc. These have no game effect per se but add to the flavor (not that adventures couldn't be built around decoding/investigating some cryptic entry in a Grimoire).

I recall from some board discussions with Gloranthan authors that they are very beautifully illuminated and illustrated, and that some of the coding is embedded in the art/illumination.

So yes, a grimoire could theoretically be encoded throughout the murals,artwork, and architecture of say a church, and require a Read Grimoire roll to read. Likewise codes and messages could be hidden just about anywhere (a tapestry, etc) that could only be deciphered with the correct read grimoire skill.

That is how I understand/play the whole Grimoire thing. This leaves some game considerations that I will discuss in a second post to break up my rambling.

 

[Blackyinkin]

Hi,

I think I would keep this skill simple, each order provides grimoires, those grimoires have a code which is secret to the cult, I would add a penalty to read another orders grimoire, and insist that the player be able to read the language it was written in.

I think God Learner Grimoires will be essentially like manuals, produced to allow easy learning, while others will be more cryptic and complex. Other cultures would do different things, there are other kinds of sorcery in Gloranthan than the basic Western philosophy.

Perhaps a non-order grimoire or even the secret grimoires of a cult would have a resistance of some kind, which a player must make an opposed roll against.

To copy a grimoire you need to have a relevant skill to make a copy, typically Calligraphy and/or Illumination (not the mystic kind), but perhaps stone masonry, art or even song (for the Aldryami and Waertagi). However you must make a successful Read Grimoire to make a copy as well.

Simon

 

[Rurik]

Rurik's Grimoire Ramblings Part 2: Mechanics Nitty Gritty.

OK - so you need the Read Grimoire skill as a Sorcerer. You use it to read and learn spells from your order's Grimoire. Great, just what you needed as a Sorcerer - ANOTHER FREAKIN SKILL TO LEARN! Each spell being a skill plus all the manipulations and now this? It is enough to drive a guy to theistic worship.

So I do this: You need competency in Read Grimoire to learn a new spell or skill through study (50 or more is what I use) from the Order's Grimoire. Otherwise you need to make a Read Grimoire roll as well BUT you can use the rules for taking longer to get a bonus. If the roll fails the study period is wasted but NOT the Improvement Rolls.

In addition a I allow a Mentor to help with the Read Grimoire skill similiarly to how they can help learn a skill. If their Read Grimore is twice or more than the students read grimore, and the mentor makes their Read Grimore roll, they can add 10% of their skill to the students read Grimore Skill for purpose of the test. I had considered not requiring use of the Read Grimoire skill at all if you had a teacher, but that makes the skill optional at best, which I think goes against the spirit/intent of Gloranthan Sorcery.

To increase a spell OR Sorcery skill the character knows through study, they can roll their Read Grimoire Skill (assuming they have access to a Grimoire). If the Read Grimoire skill succeeds AND the Improvement Roll succeeds the character gets 1d6+1 points as if they had a mentor. This way the fact that you need to learn an additional skill is offset by because that skill helps your other skills improve faster.

You do NOT need a copy of your order's Grimoire to cast spells you know. In fact these are highly protected books that orders do NOT like to fall into anyones hands, so lowly members toting around Grimoires is STRONGLY frowned upon.

You CAN cast a ritual, such as a summoning or enchantment, that is part of your orders Grimoire with your Read Grimoire skill even if you don't know the spell (with access to a Grimoire of course).

That is how I use Grimoires. Plus the set your cup of coffee on thing too.

 

[Deleriad]

Rurik's Grimoire Ramblings Part 2: Mechanics Nitty Gritty.

OK - so you need the Read Grimoire skill as a Sorcerer. You use it to read and learn spells from your order's Grimoire. Great, just what you needed as a Sorcerer - ANOTHER FREAKIN SKILL TO LEARN! Each spell being a skill plus all the manipulations and now this? It is enough to drive a guy to theistic worship.

My understanding from Cults II is that your Read Grimoire skill is used to cast any spells you have learned from your Grimoire instead of the individual spell skills.

 

[Rurik]

My understanding from Cults II is that your Read Grimoire skill is used to cast any spells you have learned from your Grimoire instead of the individual spell skills.

Hmm. I don't recall getting that impression from the book but I will go back and re-read it.

My Read Grimoire(Cults of Glorantha II) may not have been all that great back when I first read it. :wink:

 

[StephenT]

My understanding from Cults II is that your Read Grimoire skill is used to cast any spells you have learned from your Grimoire instead of the individual spell skills.

That's how HeroQuest does it too.

Let's say Magnus the Magician is a member of the Iron Blood School, which owns two grimoires: the Book of Conflict and the Mysteries of Health. Each grimoire holds a dozen different spells. Magnus, however, has only learned three from the first book and one from the second. His character sheet might look something like this:

Grimoire: Book of Conflict 56%
Spell: Bladesharp 45%
Spell: Enhance strength 26%
Spell: Run away really fast 33%
Grimoire: Mysteries of Health 18%
Spell: Heal own wounds 71%

If he's out adventuring, Magnus can cast his four spells at the abilities shown. If he's in his chamber and able to read the spell straight from his grimoires, he can cast all 24 spells in both books at his skill in that grimoire - 56% or 18% respectively. Because he knows Heal own wounds at a higher skill than his skill in the grimoire itself, he's better off casting that spell separately, though.

He can take his grimoire on adventures with him, but if it's lost or damaged he'll be in serious trouble with the rest of the order. There's also the practical point that many grimoires are huge, heavy tomes - some even have multiple volumes - and he'd need a pack mule to carry it...

Creating a copy of a grimoire means firstly, physically reproducing it - and bear in mind that the illustrations and even the colour of the ink might have magical significance, so it's no good just copying the text. You then need to enter the heroplanes and forge a magical link between your grimoire and the Node of Power established by the person who originally created the grimoire. It's this ritual that allows you to cast all the spells in the grimoire with one skill, even if you haven't learned them individually.

(Note: many wizardly orders also know other spells that aren't in their grimoire. They can teach these to their students only as separate skills.)

 

[duncan_disorderly]

Based on my understanding of the Heroquest rules.

A grimoire is a collection of magical knowledge with a connection to a source of magical power. They are (typically) connected to an order, school or church, and are normally books (or a collection of scrolls, or similar), although they don't have to be. I'd suggest that they do need to be a physical object though...

An Adept with the appropriate "Read <grimoire>" skill and access to the grimoire can use this skill to cast any spell in the grimoire, whether or not they have any skill in the spell.

An Adept can (subject to the normal rules) learn any spell that is held in the grimoire, and can cast that spell without access to the grimoire. (They can also, obviously learn any spell not in the grimoire, again, subject to the rules, and also bearing in mind that some spells may be frowned upon by their order/school/church/master etc).

An Adept can make a copy of any Grimoire known to them - as well as the physical copy, they will need to undertake a heroquest to forge the connection between the book and the source of power. This is (normally) a straight forward and "known" heroquest, and (particularly when supported by the order/school/church etc) should not pose too much of a problem.

An Adept wishing to create a (brand) new Grimoire (ie, not a copy of an existing one) must Heroquest to create the source of power and forge the link between that source and the physical grimoire. This is a difficult and experimental (in that the quester does not know before hand what challenges they are likely to meet) quest, and is therefore normally only carried out by those who are founding new schools/orders, or (those destined to become) saints. Adding new spells to an existing grimoire, or combining two grimoires into a single volume would count as creating a new grimoire for this purpose.

If you know a spell as a separate ability, and are also able to cast it from your grimoire, then when you have access to your grimoire you may use your grimoire to help you cast the spell (I guess in RQ you would use the rules for one character assisting another, although in this case the two "characters" are your skill in the spell and the skill in the grimoire).


Apostate adepts can be "cut off" from the source of power - effectively losing the "Read <grimoire>" ability. This does not prevent them from using the book as a research tool, but does prevent them from using it to cast spells they don't have a separate skill in. ("Read <Grimoire>" is really "Use <grimoire>")

(I visualise the sorcery plane as a sort of "network diagram" - where individual spells are linked to grimoires, and an adept can connect directly to a spell (if they know it as a separate ability) or via the grimoire (if they have a "Use <grimoire>" ability))

 

[Deleriad]

Based on my understanding of the Heroquest rules.


An Adept can make a copy of any Grimoire known to them - as well as the physical copy, they will need to undertake a heroquest to forge the connection between the book and the source of power. This is (normally) a straight forward and "known" heroquest, and (particularly when supported by the order/school/church etc) should not pose too much of a problem.

Ah, that's what I was wondering. That's certainly not spelled out in Cults II but I could see that as a standard "promotion" requirement either at wizard or adept level.

However, there is a maximum game fun issue of requiring beginning PC sorcerer characters to learn a new skill which won't provide them with a lot of benefit early on. Anything that makes sorcery harder to use in RQ is really not a good idea.

I must admit that I've not got the Fronela book - budget overspent at moment - so I don't know how the wizards are portrayed in there.

 

[Deleriad]

Just going back to Cults II. In the description of the skill Read Grimoire it says that "if a copy of the book is to hand and the caster 80%+ in its language then the caster can use Read Grimoire to cast any spell in it."

So that's pretty clear. On p46 it says the same except that this ability is only open to apprentices and wizards - not liturgists or lay members. However, apparently liturgists can use Read Grimoire to cast Liturgist spells from the Abiding Book.

However, in the Mostali book, Loz implies that all the Grimoire spells that are hardwired into a dwarf must be learnt as a separate skill. That could just be a play balance mechanism though as Mostali use a single skill for all the manipulations.

Trying to put this together, it seems that part of the Apprentice ritual is connecting your personal Grimoire to an essence node in order to be able to cast spells from it. Until that point it is merely a book.

 

[kintire]

However, there is a maximum game fun issue of requiring beginning PC sorcerer characters to learn a new skill which won't provide them with a lot of benefit early on. Anything that makes sorcery harder to use in RQ is really not a good idea.

They are not required to learn it. In fact, I play a sorcerer and I haven't bothered. Read Grimoire is all very well for a cloistered adept, but having to have the highly expensive and annoyingly cumbersome grimoire with you pretty much renders the skill irrelevant to adventuring sorcerers.

Its the kind of skill you might want to develop a little later on, when you are eminent enough. Its very powerful, giving access to many many spellls very efficiently, as long as you can stay in your base.

 

[Denalor]

As I see it, the Read Grimoire Skill ist used
a) to be able to learn spells from the grimoire (i.e. the research option) and
b) (which is only open to Apprentices) to actually cast spells from the grimoire... if you have the grimoire at hand.
Page 46 of Cult II suggests that owning a grimoire is rather rare. My thinking is that it is a thick tome at the respective cult's main temple (or school or whatever).
So, I think the Read Grimoire skill is only of use to learn spells not to cast them.
I also thought I read something like you can't use your manipulation skills when casting a spell directly from a grimoire and thus only cast at its basic settings, but I just can't find that passage anymore. Guess I have to read the whole book again.
Do note that there is also the sorcery spell Read Grimoire, which will allow you to learn spells from a grimoire for which you do not have the skill to read it (a grimoire you found in a ruin for example).
Copying/translating grimoires is unclear, I've not been able to find any game mechanics.

Also, I do not seem to be able to grasp the concept of learnable skills.
When you are a student, you may learn the cult's skills. What of the manipulation skills ? Are you actually allowed to learn them all and to any degree of expertise ? What of Enchanting and Summoning ? Are "Summon Power Spirit" and "Dominate Power Spirit" readily available spells ? Why ever would you want to become an Apprentice ? You will need to spend 90% of your time for thre cult.
I'm somehow missing something like "Students/Orderlies may only learn Manipulation (Magnitude)" or "Manipulation skills may only be learned up to 50% as a student" or "Only liturgist or apprentices may learn Enchanting and Summoning"... and I do believe there was somehting like that in previous RQ editions, no ?

Hmm, I drifted off to rambling... sorry.

 

[kintire]

So, I think the Read Grimoire skill is only of use to learn spells not to cast them.

Its fine for casting spells that will be cast at home: Summoning spells for example. You'll want to learn your adventuring repertoire seperatly.

Also, I do not seem to be able to grasp the concept of learnable skills.
When you are a student, you may learn the cult's skills. What of the manipulation skills ? Are you actually allowed to learn them all and to any degree of expertise ?

You can learn any skills you like, to any level you like, unless the cult specifically forbids you to do so. Cult skills are what your advancement will be judged on, and the skills your cult will most likely be able to train you in (though rare and rubbish is the sorcerous order that can't train you in the manipulation skills).

Are "Summon Power Spirit" and "Dominate Power Spirit" readily available spells ?

They'd be Essences for a Sorcerer, rather than Spirits. I don't think they are common.

Why ever would you want to become an Apprentice ? You will need to spend 90% of your time for thre cult.

Power, social and magical. increased backing from your order, and more say in what its policies are. As for the time requirement, if you pick a cult that suits you, your cult responsibilities and personal goals can overlap nicely!

 

[Denalor]

Summoning spells for example

Good point ! Also the "Create Familiar" spells would be included in a grimoire I suppose.

You can learn any skills you like, to any level you like, unless the cult specifically forbids you to do so

Sure. My question was aimed at the magical skills only. You have to become an initiate to be allowed to learn divine magic. If you're only a lay member you may only learn rune magic (that's the Glorantha version, the basic rules don't even allow that), albeit to a max magintude of 2.
If you now compare orderly/student with a lay member and liturgist/apprentice with the initiate you do not get a similiar restriction. And I find that "strange".
In a (divine) cult you have to advance in the hierarchy to get access to more powerful spells. But in a sorcerous cult/order there seems to be no restriction whatsoever.
So, in an attempt to somehow equalize this I'm playing with the idea of restricting the available level of expertise in the magical skills. Yes, of course, you could (and will) be able to increase your skills above any restricted level by practice, but with research and mentoring the respective school/order would restrict the x%, let's say 50%. Anything beyond 50% (also the teaching of dangerous spells... whatever that means) would either need practice or more dedication to the order/school/cult, i.e. advancing in the hierarchy. An even more drastic form would be to limit the available skills for students to Manipulation (Magnitude), I would indeed limit the access to the Manipulation (Combine) skill which IMHO really represents true mastery of the sorcerous arts. To learn those, you should be more devoted... and not just stay a student.

They'd be Essences for a Sorcerer, rather than Spirits.

Huh ? You lost me there. What are Essences ? In which book do I find those ?

As for the time requirement, if you pick a cult that suits you, your cult responsibilities and personal goals can overlap nicely!

Okay, point taken. But we're generally talking of 4 players and every one of them wants to advance in his cult. Coming up with adventures that suit every one could become a problem.

 

[kintire]

Sure. My question was aimed at the magical skills only. You have to become an initiate to be allowed to learn divine magic. If you're only a lay member you may only learn rune magic (that's the Glorantha version, the basic rules don't even allow that), albeit to a max magintude of 2.

I think you have slightly misunderstood. There is no limitation on what Rune Magic you may or may not learn. If you are a member of a cult you get priveleged access to the cult's trainers, which is what the max magnitude of 2 thing is all about, but if you can find some outside trainer to teach you Bladesharp 5, go to it. Having no particular connection with them, you'll pay through the nose of course (and may have trouble finding people willing to teach you combat spells), but you are not forbidden from doing it.

In theory, the same applies to Divine Magic, except that there are no outside trainers. You get it from the deity, and if he/she has decided that certain spells don't go to people without a certain level of comitment, tough. Even then, they can make exceptions in special cases (rewards for quests, for example).

So, in an attempt to somehow equalize this I'm playing with the idea of restricting the available level of expertise in the magical skills

I think that's unwise. The sheer number of skills a sorcerer must learn is the balancing factor here. Restricitng access to spells is already done by the sorcerous orders. And given trainers only do you much good when twice your skill, finding trainers much above 50% should be pretty difficult anyway...

Huh ? You lost me there. What are Essences ? In which book do I find those ?

I was being pedantic. In theory, the minor magical entities are different for each form of magic. Shamanism has Spirits, Theism Daimones and Sorcery Essences. It doesn't make much difference in practice, except that its worth bearing in mind that Shaman can't necessarily bind a Sorcerer's summon or a Theists guardian. Or vice versa, of course.

 

[Denalor]

And given trainers only do you much good when twice your skill, finding trainers much above 50% should be pretty difficult anyway...

Agreed, but I was aiming at the +10 (or up to +20) to the roll by doing research in the libraries of a sorcerous order/school/cult.

It doesn't make much difference in practice, except that its worth bearing in mind that Shaman can't necessarily bind a Sorcerer's summon or a Theists guardian. Or vice versa, of course.

Wow :shock: , I didn't know that ! So if a shaman spent all his Magic Points to summon a big elemental (say: a salamander), the Sorcerer can't use his Dominate (Salamander) spell to tackle it ? Or - when the shaman's companions actually kill the spirit, the Initiate won't be able to bind it with his enchanting skills ?
Gee, I'm not sure how a single spell caster can accomplish the summoning, the defeating, the prevention from dissipation, preparation of the spellcharged container (what is that actually ?) and the actual binding all by himself.