Generic ISA Balance Issues - Allies vs. Set List

[mollari_uk]

A special action should be special. It should not be a no brainer for any ship to use on every turn.

If a ship needs to use an SA to be worthwhile then that ship needs an upgrade.

Also some ships will never use CBDs and that for me is also wrong.

SA's should be an option for everyone. I don't even know why the ancients are excluded because surely that makes them harder to balance. Why can't Vorlons use APE for example? I found this made the transport very poor in a recent game.

CBD to 1/2 AD makes it an SA for all ships with the same downside.

 

[Foxmeister]

CBD to 1/2 AD makes it an SA for all ships with the same downside.

No it isn't - the effect on each individual ship can be very different. When Minbari lose half AD on every weapon, they still have decent long ranged mini-beams that can reach out and touch at a distance. Ships with shorter secondaries and more AD on primaries therefore suffer a disproportionate "downside". Any ship with an odd number of AD on a weapon system similarly suffers disproportionately because it is losing more than half AD. You could just say, "tough", but then again you could say the same about the current system and those ships that get to CBD for "free", but most of those either have SL weapons (e.g. Demos) or really crap secondaries (e.g. Sho'Kov) and arguably those could be fixed on a ship by ship basis.

I can see the logic behind the half AD, but I think it just introduces a different set of imbalances to the game.

Regards,

Dave

 

[mollari_uk]

I'm quite happy to agree that this isn't a change to happen for P&P but I'm not convinced that this will cause as many problems as the current SA.

Ships with shorter secondaries and more AD on primaries therefore suffer a disproportionate "downside".

No they don't, they get an average of half damage, just like everyone. AD is subjective, final damage is all that matters.

The only ones to suffer are the ones with an odd number of AD. But this is a small downside compared to ships never been able to use this SA or some ships gaining a huge advantage for doing so.

When Minbari lose half AD on every weapon, they still have decent long ranged mini-beams that can reach out and touch at a distance.

They can do this now but with full AD with one gun. I don't see the issue. Only ships with multiple guns on multiple arcs will have an advantage, but aren't they supposed to?

...but most of those either have SL weapons (e.g. Demos) or really crap secondaries (e.g. Sho'Kov) and arguably those could be fixed on a ship by ship basis.

Slow loading should be a big disadvantage but currently you spend one turn firing an over-powered gun for your PL, the next you sit on CBD and get more damage than your PL. No downside. One alternative fix for this would be to say that a reloading weapon doesn't count as a weapon for CBD.

As for crap secondaries, I doubt these guns have much of an effect on the scaling of these ships (i.e. they don't cost much to have) but yet I'm pretty sure sitting on CBD wasn't factored in to that cost. If this was a points based system every ship would "buy" a crap secondary to go with their ubber primary and sit on CBD. A very cheap way of increasing your damage score by a third.

I agree that this change would bring about some imbalances but at least they would be logical ones and IMO easier to handle.

 

[Foxmeister]

No they don't, they get an average of half damage, just like everyone. AD is subjective, final damage is all that matters.

Yes they do because those secondaries almost *never* get used because they are too short ranged. It doesn't matter whether it's half AD, full AD, or double AD, because they are never in range anyway.

The only ones to suffer are the ones with an odd number of AD. But this is a small downside compared to ships never been able to use this SA or some ships gaining a huge advantage for doing so.

It's a massive disadvantage when coupled with crappy short ranged secondaries.

When Minbari lose half AD on every weapon, they still have decent long ranged mini-beams that can reach out and touch at a distance.

[/quote]
Slow loading should be a big disadvantage but currently you spend one turn firing an over-powered gun for your PL, the next you sit on CBD and get more damage than your PL. No downside. One alternative fix for this would be to say that a reloading weapon doesn't count as a weapon for CBD.
[/quote]
I would say that a SL weapon can't be reloaded when a ship is on CBD. Makes sense to me.

I agree that this change would bring about some imbalances but at least they would be logical ones and IMO easier to handle.

The point is that this keeps getting presented as a "job done" sort of fix when this simply isn't true. Leaving the CBD system as is and amending the small number of ships for where is is *known* to be broken is clearly less unbalancing than this kind of dramatic change. On paper yes it looks fairer, but when you get down to the nuts and bolts of it the difference between two ships can change dramatically for better or worse when they are both on CBD.

A prime example of this would be the Omega/G'Quan comparison - as it currently stands the difference between the two when on CBD is 1AD on the main beam (assuming that's what you want to fire) which is not a huge difference. Going to half AD on everything, and the Omega with it's much longer ranged secondaries suddenly comes off far better than the G'Quan when on CBD.

Regards,

Dave

 

[mollari_uk]

I guess what I beleive is that SA's shouldn't be something that ships do automatically or something that if a ship doesn't do they suffer.

The current CBD is like this.

Ships should be balanced before SA's are taken into account and then SA's should be balanced so that all ships choose to use them in the desired situation

The current CBD can never be balanced for everyone because of the way it works. Simple as that. 1/2AD might not be the perfect solution but it is in the right direction.

Scrapping CBD would make me even happier as it slows down the game anyway.

 

[Foxmeister]

Scrapping CBD would make me even happier as it slows down the game anyway.

That would be my preferred solution too!

Regards,

Dave

 

[skavendan]

I second the vote.

 

[Hindsight]

Thirdededed.

 

[Rawwar]

Fourthed

I just wanna get in close and fire all my guns anyway :lol:

Pity my secondary’s are too short, my ships are too slow and or their turns are insufficient being further hamstrung by Bore Sight.

And I take every hit thus crit on my way in.

It's a dream though.

 

[skavendan]

I wouldn't worry too much paint your ships purple / white / silver and go we are the Dominion RAMING SPEED! Be funny to see some patrol cutters splat a whitestar.

 

[Rawwar]

I wouldn't worry too much paint your ships purple / white / silver and go we are the Dominion RAMING SPEED! Be funny to see some patrol cutters splat a whitestar.

I love to do it too even with his +1 to crew quality checks, for the opposed bit.

Can you imagine 8 of those chasing his ships around trying to ram each turn? :twisted:

Another rule fully abused. :roll:

 

[skavendan]

Won't be that easy to pull of but yeah it will sting the game where you just manage it every time.