Gaining experience and rewarding good roleplaying

[Tobbe]

As new to Traveller it strikes me as rahter odd to not have a rewarding system of any kind. I am missing rules for awarding good roleplaying, completing tasks etc. How do you solve this? How does your players gain experience, other than by training skills? Do they gain some sort of experience points by good roleplaying etc.? And how do they spend them?

It wouldnt be such a big deal to arrange this but some inputs are always welcome. (I suppose the Point Allocation on p. 40 could be used in some way)

Tobbe - thanks in advance!

 

[zanwot]

In theory, Traveller is one of the few games that does not use experience. The point is that it is supposed to be realistic, so people do not magically gain experience. But characters can train in new skills, it just takes time. The idea is that characters essentially gain in their possessions, social standing and experience (as in real life experience, not "experience points").

But if you feel like putting in some progression, feel free. Just be aware that you will be leaving the traditionnal Traveller style, and also that long terms fans (such as some around here, including me) can be quite attached to the Traveller style of no "experience points".

On a side note, in some games it is the amount of kills that is actually rewarded with experience points, in others it is based on the GMs assesment of your in character decisions, and in many everybody gets the same share, to keep it simple and fair. All this just to point out that it is not the actual rewarding which is the most important with "experience" systems, but the fact that characters progress in their stats. Then choosing what to reward, or if to reward, is linked to what you want to put the accent on.

 

[Woas]

Also new to Traveller like you Tobbe and the topic of player rewards has crossed my mind as I've slowly been prepping for a game in the coming months. Here are some rewards for the players/characters I've been thinking about that don't necessarily equate to giving characters 'experience points':

Bennies. This is a mechanic that I am thinking of ripping right out of another rpg called Savage Worlds. Other games have something like these... Action points, Hero points, Plot points that all sort of work towards the same goal.
With bennies, each character gets 3 at the beginning of a game session. They can be spent anytime and allow the player to just pick up any dice they just rolled (although in Savage Worlds the only exception to that is when damage dice are rolled. Can't reroll that) and reroll it for a better result. At the end of a game session all bennies not used are just wiped so there are no bennie storing or keeping track of them from week to week (or month to month, however often you gather to play).
Players can get bennies back from good roleplaying, being creative, or even telling a good in-character joke that gets the table laughing... basically when the referee deems it appropriate. Which is helpful because since Traveller does not have any 'level ups' the rules for bennies ports over without any trouble.

For a D&D game I once gave the characters estates. I didn't want to play Sim Feudal Manor with the players, and wanted to gloss over it for the most part so what it boiled down to was the characters owned some land and had crops, etc. on the land along with probably a nice house, horses, etc. The characters got a 'seasonal' allowance of 'gold' that was represented in the characters trading the wine produced at their manors grapevine fields, hosting parties, and other gifts of state. Not actual gold pieces. The players had this virtual gold to spend as they please but once they used it up it was gone until the next season. I think this could work with Traveller too. Perhaps the characters inherit or are given estates of some sort. Whether it be space bars that they own or special shares in a company... either way they have a credit pool to spend from that replenishes after a time period.

Another idea is to give the group, as a whole, access to really helpful Allies and Contacts. Perhaps a broker who can get them a new ship for REAL cheap. Or a military surplus guy who can outfit them with free ammo when they are in his system. A repair guy that does repairs on their ship when its needed for almost nothing... stuff like that.


Basically I've come to the conclusion that in Traveller, Credits = XP. Because that's how the characters get better. They pay off their ship... buy a better one with better senors/computer/engines/etc. Upgrade their weapons. Upgrade their ship.
A D&D character gets gold and XP during their careers to buy new magical gear, and the XP leads to new special abilities through higher classes. Well in Traveller credits do both: the characters buy new equipment and can afford more expensive equipment giving them access to certain abilities they may not have had before.

Hope some of that helped.

 

[Klaus Kipling]

I give bonus 'weeks in training' for exceptional skill use, tactics, or good rp'ing.

 

[Baeron Gredlocke]

For a D&D game I once gave the characters estates. I didn't want to play Sim Feudal Manor with the players, and wanted to gloss over it for the most part so what it boiled down to was the characters owned some land and had crops, etc. on the land along with probably a nice house, horses, etc. The characters got a 'seasonal' allowance of 'gold' that was represented in the characters trading the wine produced at their manors grapevine fields, hosting parties, and other gifts of state. Not actual gold pieces. The players had this virtual gold to spend as they please but once they used it up it was gone until the next season. I think this could work with Traveller too. Perhaps the characters inherit or are given estates of some sort. Whether it be space bars that they own or special shares in a company... either way they have a credit pool to spend from that replenishes after a time period.

I seem to recall something similar to this related to social standing. SOC scores above a certain level amounted to your character been granted a fief of some sort.

 

[TrippyHippy]

Sometimes it depends upon how you look at things.

If you take the stance that, in order to improve skills, wealth and status, characters have to actually go out and do things to achieve them then it reverses the whole roll playing/experience idea on it's head. i.e. rather than adventuring and garnering experience points to spend, characters go out and achieve things as part of their experiences.

For example, if you want to have your character to get good at swordfighting, have him go on a mission to find a great swordmaster and make time in his life to practice constantly. Right there is a plot hook and a characterisation, should you want it. The improving skill levels follow on from the character choices and commitments made.

 

[RedBeardSean]

For a D&D game I once gave the characters estates. I didn't want to play Sim Feudal Manor with the players, and wanted to gloss over it for the most part so what it boiled down to was the characters owned some land and had crops, etc. on the land along with probably a nice house, horses, etc. The characters got a 'seasonal' allowance of 'gold' that was represented in the characters trading the wine produced at their manors grapevine fields, hosting parties, and other gifts of state. Not actual gold pieces. The players had this virtual gold to spend as they please but once they used it up it was gone until the next season. I think this could work with Traveller too. Perhaps the characters inherit or are given estates of some sort. Whether it be space bars that they own or special shares in a company... either way they have a credit pool to spend from that replenishes after a time period.

I seem to recall something similar to this related to social standing. SOC scores above a certain level amounted to your character been granted a fief of some sort.

There was a Dragon Magazine article on this, Relief For Traveller Nobility by Paul M. Crabaugh Issue 73 pg. 26; I didn't think it was considered canon, but certainly useful if you use SOC increases as a reward.

 

[lurker]

Several good posts here.

I would like to add something suggested by a fellow player in my skype traveller game. It is not exactly what you are looking for, but is a way of allowing characters to skill up through utilization of skills.

Whenever a character rolls a natural 12 on a skill check, they have a chance to gain a level in that skill. Roll 1d6 and if it is higher than the current skill the character gains a level.

If players are not accustomed with Traveller, just reduce any monetary rewards in the game and hand out XPs. Let the players turn in the XPs for merchandise in between adventures. This gives them the reward system they desperately need without changing a thing.

 

[Shiloh]

I've been thinking about this, and especially about why my gut churns when I see people bolting XP systems onto Traveller. There are several factors, of varying objectivity...

Before my points a definition: I'm going to use "progression" in the sense of a continual and integral improvement of a character's personal skills and abilities along the lines of what we have come to know through good old D'n'D. Tougher, faster, wiser, more skilled characters, even in their underwear, and an *expectation* that such changes will be integral to the game's development.

First, and most rational/objective is that the game isn't designed with progression in mind. So adding progression can produce unintended results. Be careful and assess the impact on the way games will run before you start letting people turn into ubermenschen.

Second in the scale of rationality is that, mostly, you don't need progression. You start with an adult character, if not at the height of their powers, at least competent in their field(s), and there is no need for the "Hero's Journey", at least in the capability sense.

Third is the "Why does everything have to be like D'n'D?" crie de coeur. When I were a lad, new and different games were exciting and interesting, not scary and off-putting. Try something new: you might like it (not sucralose sweetner in coffee though. Ugh!)

Beyond that, I think my squeams about the concept of XP in Traveller are mostly individual hangups that won't apply to anyone else. The T20 approach didn't bother me, since any progression past start was slow and in small increments relative to the usual starting point.

 

[JimG]

Nicely said, Shiloh.

I personally get squeamish giving rewards for "good roleplaying." In theory, I always felt that good roleplaying should be its own reward... in practice, I understand that there are some players who need to be encouraged to put the dice down and start playing.

Also, "good roleplaying" is always totally subjective. Picture a player with a wildly flamboyant character and another with a quiet, bookish character. Which one is doing better at roleplaying here? The flamboyant character certainly talks more and definitely dominates the game, but the quiet character has a good backstory and sticks to it better...

The few times I've played in systems with role-playing rewards... it was always the most outgoing players who received the benefits.

 

[Woas]

Also, "good roleplaying" is always totally subjective. Picture a player with a wildly flamboyant character and another with a quiet, bookish character. Which one is doing better at roleplaying here? The flamboyant character certainly talks more and definitely dominates the game, but the quiet character has a good backstory and sticks to it better...

The few times I've played in systems with role-playing rewards... it was always the most outgoing players who received the benefits.

I agree that things can get one sided when it comes to roleplaying awards. But its important to note that roleplaying awards get screwed up like that because of a GM who's not really paying attention to the game/characters.

For example, the person playing the real flamboyant character may get a bonus the first couple 'acting outs'. But their not going to (and shouldn't) keep getting treats for doing the same tricks. That flamboyant character is going to have to always go above and beyond what they just did. Where as a quiet librarian type character who bides his time and thinks about his sarcasm before making a witty comment, or does something really out of the ordinary for a librarian will be rewarded more readily, and won't always need to be looking to raise the bar.

So in the end it sort of evens out. At least that's what I'm found to happen.
And like I said, a GM who is not paying attention to what the characters just did, or what they've been rewarding for all night or in previous games is going to be kind of sloppy about it all, no doubt.

 

[rust]

The player characters of my campaigns gain experience in the form of
new knowledge about the setting, new connections (contacts, allies), new
access to resources (informations, finances, equipment), a higher status
and (if they want) higher positions with more responsibility and opportuni-
ties to influence and change the setting's events, and thelike.

Good roleplaying is rewarded with more fun (the most important part of
roleplaying, I think), and usually with a higher chance to succeed with the
mission at hand, as well played characters normally "do better" than less
well played characters - perhaps because the players identify more with
their characters and invest more creativity in their actions.

There is no game mechanics system (experience points or such) in our
campaigns, the experience and the roleplaying rewards are a part of
the setting's "reactions" to the activities of the characters, and develop
according to the "inner logic" of the setting.

 

[Myrm]

Advancement does not necessarily have to come in abstract terms of XP. Money is also a nicely quantifiable benefit. If money can be used to buy any new toys that experience would be used to (eg stat augments, skill augments) within the scale of the game than it can become the ultimate XP total.

Experience systems are there to allow the players a feeling of achievement and advancement. You face badder villains, you fight harder monsters, you get better toys - you can do more things. Thats the feeling you have to satiate in your players. XP gives an abstract and quantifiable method of doing this.

If you can substitute in another track for them to count this on then it can replace XP. Traveller you can start at a planetary level, then move to sub sector, then bigger and bigger to help do this.

That said, having something other than XP which is a player counted reward (not character counted) and moving to a character based counting system generally requires more work, in my experience, as you must then be driving the story to achieve a character's goals in a measured manner that makes the player see a sense of advancement. Get it right and the abstract XP system becomes unnecessary, get it wrong and you can sink as players and characters are frustrated and mired in no-man's land.

Ultimately replacing a generic and global system like XP is entirely possible but requires skill and preparation. You must understand both your player's drives and the drives they have placed on their characters. Do that, everybody wins.

 

[Shiloh]

Advancement does not necessarily have to come in abstract terms of XP.

[snip]

Ultimately replacing a generic and global system like XP is entirely possible but requires skill and preparation. You must understand both your player's drives and the drives they have placed on their characters. Do that, everybody wins.

This is a good point about a reward system. A good first step is to tell them what sort of game it is you're running so that their expectations can start to develop along lines you can live with. I'm sure it's entirely possible to play a game where they start off as a bunch of farm kids catapulted into the interstellar medium by "events" and eventually attain power and riches (and a good portfolio of useful skills), and that sort of game would need some progression mechanic.

But if you have a story arc in mind, let the players know that they will be playing "fully formed " characters from the get-go, and that while they might potentially expect knighthoods (for example) or patents of nobility (or large secret bank accounts, or access to prototype military tech, or whatever) that the timescale will pretty much preclude much skill/stat improvement. From that basis, perhaps you won't feel the *need* for a system.

Also, a decent "game contract" where you can at least hope that peoples' goals are not incompatible, and they know what sort of thrust they can expect to be following, can help shape mindsets.

 

[Myrm]

they will be playing "fully formed " characters from the get-go, and that while they might potentially expect knighthoods (for example) or patents of nobility (or large secret bank accounts, or access to prototype military tech, or whatever) that the timescale will pretty much preclude much skill/stat improvement. From that basis, perhaps you won't feel the *need* for a system.

From my perspective, I think the potential benefits gained in your story arc above would be one version of what Id call an alternate on-XP based reward system - if it leaked in in increments rather than one big reward at the end of the game - sense of achievement comes in then.

 

[Shiloh]

they will be playing "fully formed " characters from the get-go, and that while they might potentially expect knighthoods (for example) or patents of nobility (or large secret bank accounts, or access to prototype military tech, or whatever) that the timescale will pretty much preclude much skill/stat improvement. From that basis, perhaps you won't feel the *need* for a system.

From my perspective, I think the potential benefits gained in your story arc above would be one version of what Id call an alternate on-XP based reward system - if it leaked in in increments rather than one big reward at the end of the game - sense of achievement comes in then.

Except that the rewards are direct consequences of doing things, not some sort of metagame improvement. You get the knighthood because you save the planetary Duke from assassination, and she's grateful, not because the game says you must. You will be unlikely to get a knighthood when the campaign is about peri-legal dabblings in Ancient artifacts - the reward is related to what you're doing, so you might get Psionic abilities or a superweapon.

You don't get automatically promoted from Sergeant in the ship's marines to Master Sergeant when you've killed 450 space Pirates; there are other considerations that have to be met: do you keep your brawling with the Navy pukes discrete and non-disabling; do you get on well with your platoon Rupert; do you have Leader-2?

Equally, you might get nothing. If you save the Duke, but cop a feel while you're "protecting" her, you get nothing but a curt thanks, or you pick her up as an enemy when public opinion forces her to knight you. The artifact hunters can end up gazumped or robbed or incarcerated, and the Sergeant can end up cashiered if his deal with the Quartermaster on those Gauss Rifles gets spotted.

 

[Myrm]

They are nonetheless rewards in character for achievement in some field or other exactly the same as XP is (at least in any game I have played) - unless they are handed out arbitrarily by the DM. A living gameworld will have criteria for such rewards and careful development of the world allows you to put enough such bennies into the game to create the sense of achievement that an XP based system.

The important bit is to provide enough 'success' points through the course of the game to get the continual sense of advancement that an XP total can be used to give.

Likewise the penalty option you offer as an example from copping a feel on the Duke would in most games I have played in or run generally produce an XP penalty or reduction in gain.

XP in every game I have ever played are awarded as consequences of actions and those actions and their degree of success and failure - if they are disconnected from that they cease to function as intended.

Any in game consequences from character actions can be used in the same way as XP, potentially. Im not saying its easy, Im not saying its universally suitable for all players. Im simply saying its an option.

As soon as there exists criteria for an award with in game effects - be it promotion and more cash, or simply recognition and improved NPC interaction, its a character action based reward - which is all XP is.

The trick is stringing enough together in a game to create a line or better a web of benefits that crop up enough to allow you to replace XP - which has the benefits in most games of being a pre-existing global reward system thats easy, readily comparable and obvious in terms of cost/benefit.

 

[Shiloh]

They are nonetheless rewards in character for achievement in some field or other exactly the same as XP is (at least in any game I have played)...

I dispute the "exact" bit. In D'n'D for example, it's quite possible to amass large quantities of XP from slaughtering minions of the Big Bad, and even the Big Bad themself. If you don't manage to rescue the hostage, you don't get the bonus XP for that objective, and you don't get the *additional* reward from whoever cared enough for the hostage to send you to get 'em. But you still get something.

In Traveller, you probably wouldn't get anything much if you didn't bring back the bacon. A favour owed for giving it your best shot, maybe, but just as likely your sponsor becomes a resentful "enemy" because you *failed* to save their beau.

A living gameworld will have criteria for such rewards and careful development of the world allows you to put enough such bennies into the game to create the sense of achievement that an XP based system.

Take the XP out of a living DnD world, and you will still find bennies. XP is extra.

Likewise the penalty option you offer as an example from copping a feel on the Duke would in most games I have played in or run generally produce an XP penalty or reduction in gain.

But it'd be good roleplaying if the character was an inveterate lecher, so worthy of a bonus, too, neh?

Any in game consequences from character actions can be used in the same way as XP, potentially. Im not saying its easy, Im not saying its universally suitable for all players. Im simply saying its an option.

The difference being that the rewards from consequences are a natural part of the environment, not an artificial game mechanic to satisfy the stereotype.

As soon as there exists criteria for an award with in game effects - be it promotion and more cash, or simply recognition and improved NPC interaction, its a character action based reward - which is all XP is.

I disagree. XP is more than that. It's also expected that there will be a base level for just turning up, generally.

The trick is stringing enough together in a game to create a line or better a web of benefits that crop up enough to allow you to replace XP - which has the benefits in most games of being a pre-existing global reward system thats easy, readily comparable and obvious in terms of cost/benefit.

The obvious reward system in Trav is money. It's also the obvious motivator: suddenly having to find 20kCr for a new Heterodyne Flange for the M-Drive can get people off their lazy butts.

 

[Myrm]

Your examples are fine on first look but they are often set within the structure of existing common conventions of games system structures, not looking at the base causes for those system being there. You mention that its fitting stereotypes for example - Im trying to challenge that stereotype necessity - simply to fit something to Traveller

In most games, in game bennies are typically sporadic, not structured etc unlike XP systems which are built into the games - this does not mean they cannot be made that way. Thats the point I am trying to get across. There are good commercial reasons not to do this (see the end of this) and why its going to be something done by a specific DM - predominantly the individuality required...as I have mentioned before.

I am simply suggesting it is possible to go outside of the usual conventions and change the way a game is organised to take into account the lack of an XP system.

All XP is there for is to provide a sense of achievement through periodic regular bonuses that eventually add up to increase in character ability in game. At that point, you can take non-XP systems and make them work and do exactly the job of an XP system - IF (and its a big if) you do it right.

The difficult bit, which was the thrust of my original point, is that stepping away from that metasystem of XP is a lot of work and also very situational compared to a pre-existing abstract XP system which IMO will usually be the easiest solution and also easy to write to cover a wide range of groups, styles of play etc - thats where an abstract XP really wins and its strengths are why it is widespread. As it is widespread that is why there is an expectation to see one.

As you say money is a potentially easy one.

 

[Shiloh]

Ah. I think I see more what you were getting at now. I think you're right, if possibly understating it somewhat, that it would be difficult, and very situational.

From my POV, "rewards" are as much a way of changing the future story as they are about changing the capabilities of the protagonists. For example, I'm participating currently in a very fast-and-loose D&D 3.5ish game where the levels (yes, levels, not XP) are getting handed out like candy because the game is about Apotheosis and a world's basic cosmology changing.

So I don't see the necessity so much for something so structured and finely graded that every "reward" is a mark of achievement. Also, if you assume the equivalence of "reward" and achievement, then it becomes a nonsense to give apparent rewards that are only there (at least in the beginning) to progress the story: the windfall speculative trade, the lucky find in the Belt, the random Maguffin in the cargo. It would be even more difficult to include story elements like this when you're trying to draw a precise analogy between "bennies" and achievement.

Notwithstanding the above, which may be achievable for an individual GM running for people they understand, generating such a system as part of the commercial product is, to all practical purposes, impossible.