flat-footed, sneak attack and defence value

[treeplanter]

Quick question here.
Flat-footed character lose dex bonus to DV.
rogue/pirate entry say that Sneak attack apply when a character is denied is Parry bonus or Dodge bonus or when flanked.
I'm usure if it mean the same thing, but I assume not.

Wich mean you can't sneak attack a flat-footed character or when using the feinting option of Bluff.

My though was to allow the sneak attack when dex bonus is denied, but it might make it too easy for a moderetly high level rogue to kill his target.

I wonder if a more experienced GM than me (not hard to find since I only ran 2 sessions) has any though about it?

Thanks!

 

[Prof.Dogg]

D&D rules are that a Rogue may sneak attack any character who is denied his Dex & a flat-footed character is specifically defined as the usual means of sneak attacking. Conan has the BIG advantage for Rogues of them adding their Reflex core to initiative so it makes it far more likely that most Rogues will get in at least one sneak attack in a round (possibly more depending on BAB).

 

[Shonuff]

This has been a subject of MUCH debate on these forums due to the unclear rules in the book. In the combat section (Touch attacks and flat-footed defense values pg.160), it states in one place that a flat-footed character loses all Dodge and Parry bonuses so their DV is 10. On the next page (in the section called Flat-footed pg.161), it states that you cannot use your Dexterity bonus to DV when flat-footed.

In another section that started on page 159 and rolls over to 160, it discusses Other Modifiers in relation to DV. One section (at the top of page 160), mentions Dodge Bonuses and how any situation that causes a loss of Dex bonus to DV also causes a loss to Dodge Bonuses. This was a reference like seen in DnD3.5 (to Dodge Bonses that is – like the Dodge feat), but many thought this meant the complete loss of your Dodge CLASS Bonus (which was different from the referenced Dodge Bonus on the top of pg. 160).

So – does flat-footed mean a loss of Dex to DV? If so, how about Str to Parry? . . . OR . . . Does flat-footed mean a complete loss of all bonuses (both stat bonuses and class defense bonuses)?

The answer to this question would have a great impact on Sneak Attacks.

Anyway – Mongoose Bob attempted to clarify these rules for us in the RulesMasters section.

Official Answers from Mongoose Bob:
1. Flat-footed means a DV of 10 and you cannot use any bonuses to DV.
2. Sneak Attacks are thus allowed against flat-footed, flanked, unaware, or otherwise helpless opponents.
3. Sneak Attacks may NOT be used with the feint maneuver.
4. Feinting causes a loss of stat bonuses to DV (Dex to Dodge, Str to Parry)

However – Mongoose Bob did say they were still looking this over and have not yet made a final decision they can share with us. He did mention that feinting might also cause a complete loss in Defense Bonuses, yet he has not ruled this as official yet.

----------Warning: Personal opinions below ---------------------------------

Things to think about in my opinion:
1. I personally do not like flat-footed causing a DV of 10, unless you are also unaware of your opponent. I think you should retain your Class Bonuses to DV (but not stat bonuses - like in DnD 3.x, Star Wars, SpyCraft, Wheel of Time, etc.) if you can see your opponent running right at you ready to chop your head off. What kind of experienced adventurer would simply stand there, completely unmoving, in such a situation? If you did not see them coming however (like if they were to sneak up on you from behind in a true thiefly fashion), then I understand not having time to react. --- I would also allow for a person to be caught flat-footed AND unaware (thus DV=10) if they made proper use of the Striking Cobra feat. Otherwise, I think experienced adventurers will at least make an effort to avoid or block an attack they see coming right at them (however suffering a minor penalty due to stat losses to DV). I just believe this method (ff=loss of stat to defense), as seen in most other d20/OGL games, has been more play-tested.

2. Realize just how deadly a DV of 10 really is. Some like this, but I think it is a bit too much (and I think Conan would not have lasted very long in his adventures vs. the many sorcerers he faced following this rule). You can easily make Touch Attacks and a Finesse Attack, even against very protective armor, is quite easy. Combine this with spells such as Death Touch or the class ability Sneak Attack, and you give a HUGE advantage to those classes.

3. If you allow Feinting (which is the wrong word to use since it is more of a sly diversion rather than a martial “mock-blow” feint) to also cause a complete loss of Defense (DV=10), then this situation gets even worse. Sneak Attacks will potentially then be allowed each round (if a character takes the Improved Feint feat) and the potential damage done (plus adding extras like Crippling Strike, which causes a –2 to Str EACH hit!) becomes way too unbalancing. (Don't forget the Massive Damage Fort. saves on page 171.)

In the end, we will all just have to wait and see what the revised book says regarding these situations. Opinions do differ on this subject. If any of us are unhappy with the results, then I’m sure we will all have our own HOUSE RULES set up in no time. I know I will.

Good luck with your game.

 

[treeplanter]

Thanks for both of the official ruling and your opinion. I had a doubt that feinting with sneak attack would be a little bit abusive.

I also think DV 10 is a little brutal for flat-footed character. Maybe DV 10 for surprised character is ok, but a flat-footed character is'nt THAT defenseless.

 

[charliebananas]

i love the DV 10 rule, but i always understood that you only stayed flatfooted until you had an action, i.e if you lost initiative on the first round of a turn, after that first round the only way you could become flat footed again is if something else deprived you of your def bonus. its almost like a mini surprise round, which is good as you no longer check for surprise as we used to in AD&D.

 

[Arkobla Conn]

Ok, so you are flat footed until your initiative. Well hrm...Not sure about that. Lets take two examples.

1. The fight is just starting, Fighter A is standing 100 feet away from Fighter B. Init for Fighter A is 18, for B it's 10. On initiative 18, Fighter A runs 100 feet to close within melee range. Fighter B can't get his bowshot off and will be forced to switch weapons. Figther B is flatfooted.

2. The fight is half over, Fighter A is standing 100 feet away from Fighter B. Init for Fighter A is 18, for B it's 10. On inititiave 18, Fighter A runs 100 feet to close within melee range. Figther B can't get his bowshot off and will be forced to swithc weapons. Figther B is not flatfooted.

eh?

This brings up my beef with this situaiton. As fighter B, I can SEE the guy running at me. It takes seconds to do so. If I have a bow and arrow knocked in my hands, I can't imagine WHY I can't get a shot off in either case. Ok, maybe I'm just so not ready for combat in A, that I can't get the shot off. (yea right) but in B, i'm stumped. The initiative system breaks down when ranged weapons are in use. (I'm presupossing that Fighter B has done nothing the previous round that would ill prepare him for this.)

What I wonder at is HOW FAR CAN A PERSON RUN IN A INITIATIVE ROUND? You know, between 18 and 17. Between 17 and 16. Can I figure out how far Fighter A gets before being shot? It's confusing and annoying that a bowman who is ready (stated before combat that he had a bow and arrow knocked) but then rolls a poor initiative can't get a single shot off while someone runs a marathon to him. Can anyone answer that??

 

[Murte]

Yep Ark, it's called the rules, not realism.

 

[Throthvile]

In this situation Fighter B could simply ready an attack with his bow, saying he will shoot anyone who comes closer. When Fighter A charges at Fighter B this certainly meets the conditions of the readied action. With a hundred feet being covered I'm sure that Fighter B would be able to switch weapons in time as well. However, if Fighter B truly "stood around doing nothing" or it was perhaps the first round of combat and B hadn't drawn his bow or stated his intentions to the GM yet, then no, he wouldn't get to do anything.

 

[Anonymous]

Ok, so you are flat footed until your initiative. Well hrm...Not sure about that. Lets take two examples.

1. The fight is just starting, Fighter A is standing 100 feet away from Fighter B. Init for Fighter A is 18, for B it's 10. On initiative 18, Fighter A runs 100 feet to close within melee range. Fighter B can't get his bowshot off and will be forced to switch weapons. Figther B is flatfooted.

Eh? Firstly, assuming he's not armoured, Fighter A can either move up to 30 feet and attack, or charge up to 60 feet in a straight line and attack, or move 60 feet in whatever direction and do nothing else, or run up to 120 feet in a straight line and do nothing else. See page 170 of the Conan rulebook. If Fighter B is 100 feet away, then Fighter A is screwed.

Assuming Fighter A does nothing but run (as a full-round action) and ends up face to face with fighter B, all fighter B has to do is take a five-foot step backwards and shoot him as a standard action.

So, no matter what Fighter A does, fighter B can shoot him with the arrow.

2. The fight is half over, Fighter A is standing 100 feet away from Fighter B. Init for Fighter A is 18, for B it's 10. On inititiave 18, Fighter A runs 100 feet to close within melee range. Figther B can't get his bowshot off and will be forced to swithc weapons. Figther B is not flatfooted.

I have no idea why you think this situation would be any different to the one above. Fighter A can't move 100 feet without removing any possibility of attacking, and Fighter B can always get his bowshot off.

eh?

This brings up my beef with this situaiton. As fighter B, I can SEE the guy running at me. It takes seconds to do so. If I have a bow and arrow knocked in my hands, I can't imagine WHY I can't get a shot off in either case.

Having a bow and arrow nocked would be a *readied attack*. That is not the same thing as having the weapon 'ready'. Once combat is ongoing, you could ready a bowshot against Fighter A for 'as soon as he comes within 30 feet'. If you can sneak attack, then so much the better, because if the fool is running, he can't dodge (unless he has the Run feat) and the attack would thus be a ranged sneak attack!

Ok, maybe I'm just so not ready for combat in A, that I can't get the shot off. (yea right) but in B, i'm stumped. The initiative system breaks down when ranged weapons are in use. (I'm presupossing that Fighter B has done nothing the previous round that would ill prepare him for this.)

The system works fine. You just need to discover the joy of a Readied Action.

Basically, so long as Fighter B had the chance to ready an attack against Fighter A on his last turn- a situation that applies in all rounds of combat except the very first - he can shoot the heck out of Fighter A as soon as the fool comes close. Check this breakdown out:

Round 1
Count 18: Fighter A is hacking away doing something else
Count 10: Fighter B readies an attack action against Fighter A with the trigger 'if he comes within 30 feet'.

Round 2
Count 18: Fighter A runs 70 feet to close with Fighter B. The readied action goes off. Fighter A is running, so his Defence Value is 10. Fighter B shoots him through the spleen. From this point on, Fighter B's initiative count will also be 18 and he will act immediately before Fighter A.

I also think that you may be confusing the rules for actions when flat-footed with the rules for a *surprise round*.

What I wonder at is HOW FAR CAN A PERSON RUN IN A INITIATIVE ROUND?

There isn't any such thing as an initiative round.

You know, between 18 and 17. Between 17 and 16. Can I figure out how far Fighter A gets before being shot? It's confusing and annoying that a bowman who is ready (stated before combat that he had a bow and arrow knocked)

See above distinction between a ready *weapon* and a readied *attack*.

but then rolls a poor initiative can't get a single shot off while someone runs a marathon to him. Can anyone answer that??

Yep! [/quote]

 

[sanseveria]

I have a simple house rule, if both combatants are aware of each other, there neither is flat-footed at start of combat. it's simply and works wonderfully.

SS

 

[Anonymous]

Assuming Fighter A does nothing but run (as a full-round action) and ends up face to face with fighter B, all fighter B has to do is take a five-foot step backwards and shoot him as a standard action.

Remember, when you try that foolishness in Conan you provoke an attack of opportunity!

Otherwise, perfect answer.

 

[Mongoose_Ade]

Assuming Fighter A does nothing but run (as a full-round action) and ends up face to face with fighter B, all fighter B has to do is take a five-foot step backwards and shoot him as a standard action.

Remember, when you try that foolishness in Conan you provoke an attack of opportunity!

Otherwise, perfect answer.

Please note: the following is just my opinion, not official Mongoose ruling...

Only when the 5 foot step is *combined with* another action. That is, if you took a 5-foot step as part of a full attack action, for example, you would provoke an AoO, since the step is combined with it. When you take a 5-foot step as a discrete *move* action, you are not 'combining' it with any other action, so you don't provoke an AoO.

So, if Fighter B wanted to step back 5 feet and try a *full* attack with his bow, he could do so, but *that* would provoke an AoO. By restricting his attack to a move action (5-foot step) and standard action (bow shot) he avoids AoO.

Can you perform a 5-foot step as a move action? My answer would be 'definitely'. In ordinary d20, this does not come up, because it is a non-issue. Nobody would *want* to take a 5-foot step as a move action in ordinary d20. In Conan, because of that 'combining' point, it becomes an issue.

*edited to remove evidence of temporary brain failure*

The whole point of a five-foot step is that it is cautious, limited and careful, and thus does not ordinarily provoke AoOs. The difference between Conan and other more conventional d20 games is that Conan seems to say 'when you are taking a five-foot step in the middle of doing something else, you let your guard down'. You thus can't take that cautious step when you're also making a full attack in that round, or performing any other kind of full-round action for that matter.

 

[sbarrie]

Please note: the following is just my opinion, not official Mongoose ruling...

Noted.

Can you perform a 5-foot step as a move action? My answer would be 'definitely'. In ordinary d20, this does not come up, because it is a non-issue. Nobody would *want* to take a 5-foot step as a move action in ordinary d20. In Conan, because of that 'combining' point, it becomes an issue.

Interesting. Would you allow two 5-foot-steps as two move actions in the same round? Maybe a new term should be used to distinguish between moving 5 feet as a move action (not provoking an AoO) and moving 5 feet during a full action (provoking an AoO).

Let's say you're in someone's threatened area. You move five feet sideways, still remaining within his threatened area. You then attack. If you were moving those five feet as the move action 'moving up to your speed' then you would not provoke an AoO, because you've not left his threatened area.

As I understand it, you certainly would. You've left the initial threatened square/hex. (I use hexes) That's what provokes the AoO. I don't have my Conan book here to check to see if that's different than the standard SRD, though.

Surely you don't allow characters to use a move action to circle an opponent 180 degrees or more as a move action? Thieves would never need to tumble to get a flanking attack with their buddy, they'd just jog around the silly freebooter.

 

[Mongoose_Ade]

Interesting. Would you allow two 5-foot-steps as two move actions in the same round?

No, because a 5 foot step can't be performed as such if you've taken any other movement that round.

Thinking about it some more, the trick is really to define 'combined' in this context, rather than to allow a 5 foot step as a move action. For now, I would define 'combined' quite simply as 'made as part of a full-round action', since in that instance the step is made *as part of* the action instead of being made *as well as* the action.

Maybe a new term should be used to distinguish between moving 5 feet as a move action (not provoking an AoO) and moving 5 feet during a full action (provoking an AoO).

Well, it's all cleared up in the second edition, which I've just finished editing...

As I understand it, you certainly would. You've left the initial threatened square/hex. (I use hexes) That's what provokes the AoO.

You're right. My brain was temporarily on hold. It's movement *within* or out of a threatened area.

 

[Arkobla Conn]

Thanks All - nice answers. I meant to say that I understood that a readied action was the difference between situation 1 and 2. The key is only on the first round.

Concerning the 'initiative round' I know they don't exist...I was projecting a half concieved, not nearly explained idea I'm thinking about....more later perhaps...

 

[InsomNY]

Well, it's all cleared up in the second edition, which I've just finished editing...

Ooooohhh, YES. That's what I like to hear! I haven't seen you around the boards yet, Ade; are you a he-mongoose or a she-mongoose? 'Cos if you're a she-mongoose, I will kiss you. If you're a he-mongoose .... aw hell, I'll kiss you anyway. Either way, I'll lift a pint or 5 in your honor! :lol:

 

[Mongoose_Ade]

Well, it's all cleared up in the second edition, which I've just finished editing...

Ooooohhh, YES. That's what I like to hear! I haven't seen you around the boards yet, Ade; are you a he-mongoose or a she-mongoose? 'Cos if you're a she-mongoose, I will kiss you. If you're a he-mongoose .... aw hell, I'll kiss you anyway. Either way, I'll lift a pint or 5 in your honor! :lol:

I'm a he-Mongoose - Adrian Bott. I wrote Sovereign Magic, Book of Hell, Strongholds and Dynasties, Quint Human etc. etc. Ironically enough, this is my last night as a full-time Mongoose! I'm off to do other writing projects that have nothing to do with gaming. (I'll probably be back later in the year, though. Working for the Mongoose is too much fun to stay away from, IME.)

Last night I GMed Ian Sturrock's first ever game of Conan. Now *that* was fun.

 

[sbarrie]

Interesting. Would you allow two 5-foot-steps as two move actions in the same round?

No, because a 5 foot step can't be performed as such if you've taken any other movement that round.

Thinking about it some more, the trick is really to define 'combined' in this context, rather than to allow a 5 foot step as a move action. For now, I would define 'combined' quite simply as 'made as part of a full-round action', since in that instance the step is made *as part of* the action instead of being made *as well as* the action.

It sounds to me like allowing two 5-foot-steps is a lot easier than playing semantics with 'combined'. Would letting a character move 10' without attacks of opportunity while doing nothing else really be that bad?

Of course, then you could make a normal move into the threat range of an opponent with a Warspear, and then 5-foot-stalk inside his threat zone.

Yeah, I guess that's what Mobility is for. Good call.