Fighters [auxilery craft] supporting capital ships Question

[Epaminondas]

So my local group was rereading the fighter rules together last night... and came across supporting fighters.

When a capital ship is being supported by one or more fighter craft, can those fighter craft be targeted by anti-fighter weapons on other ships, or pulled off by other fighters?

Situation 1: Narn capital ship is being escorted by one fighter. EA starfury and thunderbolt move up to attack, starfury first.
- May the starfury attack the fighter specifically and initiate a dogfight?
- Does the starfury have to support the thunderbolt, (ie both sides support), and both sides get an intercept resulting in the fighters dogfighting and the thunderbolt attacking the ship

Situation 2: Narn capital ship is being escorted by X number of fighters. EA ship with antifighter weapons is in range, and declares its targeting the supporting fighters.
- Is this possible?

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One person argued that since the supporting fighters were on the "base" of the capital ship, they couldn't be targeted.

One rule basis I can see for that would be skin dancing... but if you are skin dancing your own capital ship, why would the enemy trying to shot the fighter care about hitting the capital ship instead of the fighter? If anything the enemy would be happy- he would either damage a fighter or damage the capital ship!

I don't see a specific rule stating that the fighters aren't targetable.

 

[Wulf Corbett]

When a capital ship is being supported by one or more fighter craft, can those fighter craft be targeted by anti-fighter weapons on other ships, or pulled off by other fighters?

Fighters in Support can be attacked in any way, by weapons fire or Dogfighting. If you're firing at the fighters, you aren't firing at the ship, so they're still doing their job...

Wulf

 

[Burger]

One person argued that since the supporting fighters were on the "base" of the capital ship, they couldn't be targeted.

Did he just make that "rule" up as he was going along??

 

[Wulf Corbett]

One person argued that since the supporting fighters were on the "base" of the capital ship, they couldn't be targeted.

Did he just make that "rule" up as he was going along??

There was a theory, once upon a time, that Supporting flights were not placed on the table at all, and so could not be targetted. This was when the rule of no overlapping was still taken to include fighters. Fighters being 'on' the base was taken to mean 'not on the table'.

Wulf

 

[Ripple]

That was how we played it as well. Especially for those using the FA scale where the fighter and the ship had the same base size, how exactly did four flights get on the ships' base? We ruled that since the 'stacking rule' was apparently not in force you could stack the bases, rather than have awkward towers of fighters on top of very tiny ships we just placed them to the side with the record sheet for that ship.

We figured it was a bit like skin dancing. If a whitestar can skin dance on a ship smaller than it so can my pile of SM fighters on a friendly ship. Something like that was how we fluffed off dealing with a poorly defined mechanic for stacking.

When we got a bit more stringent with the rules we did allow shooting the flights and allowed them to shoot back, which was something else we started out doing wrong. No rule prevents them shooting. And last time I looked we could not find a rule preventing shooting and dogfighting, which most here seem to think is not allowed. Just not a rigorously tested rule, it played well within the assumed setting so they did not go through and do a if x then y situation analisys...happens alot in game design.

Ripple

 

[Methos5000]

This came up in a game last night.

I had one fighter supporting my WS and it was surrounded by 6 starfuries, all in base contact with the ship(and the fighter).

Now if he attacks, basically all his fighters join in on the dogfight, correct? since they are in base contact and there is only one enemy fighter there.

And if that is true, then since those fighters were involved in the dogfight by helping the first one then they are done for the turn right?

Also if I would have had initiative my fighter would initiate the dogfight first correct? Now since supporting ship rules state it only dogfights once per turn what about all the other enemy fighters that were in base contact with it?

 

[Wulf Corbett]

Now if he attacks, basically all his fighters join in on the dogfight, correct? since they are in base contact and there is only one enemy fighter there.

Not quite. Ships in Support do not attack until the enemy fighter attempts to attack the ship. Attacks, of course, are made in the Attack Phase, whereas normal Dogfights are declared in the Movement Phase (when fighters contact one another). If he hasn't declared he's attacking the fighter flight, then he is not Dogfighting it (despite being in contact - see where the confusion with being 'on the base' lies?), although he could still fire normally. The Supporting flights declare interception when an attack is declared. The owning player may use none, one, some, or all his supporting flights against each attacker in turn, but each Supporting flight may only be used once, and the resulting Dogfights are resolved IMMEDIATELY (so, you sort of retroactively declare them to be Dogfighting).

Now, that's how I understand it...

Wulf

 

[Burger]

I think you have it right Wulf. The attacker's mates cannot support in the dogfight because it is resolved immediately when they fire on the capital ship.

 

[Locutus9956]

not quite I think, you dont declare dogfights, if you move your fighters into contact with another one you ARE dogfighting it automatically.

If you move them into contact with the ship base then they dont attack till you launch an attack on the ship but if you actually move into contact with the supporting fighter flight then you are in a dogfight imediately.

 

[Wulf Corbett]

If you move them into contact with the ship base then they dont attack till you launch an attack on the ship but if you actually move into contact with the supporting fighter flight then you are in a dogfight imediately.

The problem with this is it then becomes a question of base sizes and the position ON the ship base you sit your fighter base. If it sticks out over the ship base, it's dogfighting. If the base is bigger, or the Supporting flight is round the other side of the stem, it's not. That doesn't sound right to me.

Wulf

 

[Burger]

If you move them into contact with the ship base then they dont attack till you launch an attack on the ship but if you actually move into contact with the supporting fighter flight then you are in a dogfight imediately.

The problem with this is it then becomes a question of base sizes and the position ON the ship base you sit your fighter base. If it sticks out over the ship base, it's dogfighting. If the base is bigger, or the Supporting flight is round the other side of the stem, it's not. That doesn't sound right to me.

Locutus has it right, if a fighter is in base contact with another fighter, it is automatically dogfighting, you don't get to choose. It has nothing to do with the base of the capital ship, both fighters can sit on it and either be touching each other or not.

 

[Epaminondas]

Did he just make that "rule" up as he was going along??

No, we were discussing the rule mechanic before game- nothing shady, just a pre game "lets try and figure out the fighter rules" discussion.

I think he was trying to give the wordage about putting the fighter on the ship's base some meaning beyond convenience... we are all pretty new, and working out alot of the rules in Durham, NC.

In the game, it didn't come up; he assigned his fighters to escort his bombers, and I set mine up for intercepting at range rather then close in.

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It was his idea to bring up one rule a gaming session, reread it and discuss to see if we are playing it right. There are maybe 4-6 of us locally, and its useful to make sure we all know the rules.

 

[Locutus9956]

you can sit 1 mm away from the enemy fighter without making much difference to your range from the ship itself and not dogfight but if you TOUCH the enemy fighter regardless of ship base sizes you are locked in a dogfight until one side has no fighers left in said furball.