Extensive Dissertation on Theists, Godlearners, and Stuff

[Rurik]

OK. This is gonna ramble on a bit so I want to start by saying where I am going. I want God Learners to steal Divine Magic and then be able to Manipulate it.To start with, I need a plausible explanation of how, and then need the mechanics to match.

I am looking for comments on how this fits into Glorantha who by those who know more about structure and relationships of the planes/worlds than I do (Jeffs and Simons and the like) as well as general feedback and opinions by anyone who actually takes the time to read this.

Theism, Theology, and Divine Magic in Glorantha.
In earlier RQ's Divine magic was granted directly from your god (in exchange for a permanent sacrifice of POW), and so didn't require a skill, or even 'learning' a spell per se - it was a direct grant from the diety in question. Hence the Automatic success/base 100% chance in previous editions.

Now we have a Theology skill for each god, or aspect of a god, and that skill determines your chance of success. When first rationalizing this after reading the Companion I figured that Theology(god) was a measure of devotion to that god. The more you learn, the more devotion you show, and the more likely your god is to 'respond' when you need to cast a spell (in an abstract way, Orlanth is not sitting around saying I should grant this spell to so and so at this time because he studied hard this week). This explanation worked, but would not apply to God Learners. How do they cast Divine Spells?

God Learner Bastards
So when I decided I wanted rules for God Learners 'plundering' Divine Magic I needed the 'How'. I want it to be done on HeroQuests, and for them to have to prepare to 'steal' a specific spell, and then try to make sure the spell gets cast on the HeroQuest so they can capture its' "secret". Once stolen, they could cast the spell - but obviously it would not be 'granted' by the god in question, so it would not be one use, and the Theology skill as described above would not really apply.

So these God Learners have this thing called the RuneQuest Sight, that allows them to see the relationships between the different worlds and magic types and gods and such and how they all intertwine. Essentially Rune Magic, Theism, Shamanism ,and Sorcery are all just different ways of drawing on the same essence, and the RuneQuest sight is the ability to 'see' the big picture. Is this basically right or is my understanding of Gloranthan Metaphysics off here?

If the above paragraph is more or less true, the Theology(god) skill could also be seen as a measure of understanding how a particular god interacts with and taps into the power of the (related) otherworlds and turns them into manifestations on the physical world (spells). Now a true theist would not know this in an academic way like a God Learner, they would master it in an abstract way, through learning the rituals, myths, and so on of the god in question, and as a result be better at actually making that gods' magic happen (hence the Theology skill check for casting spells).

God Learners on the other hand, would learn the Theology of a god to and use it in conjunction with RuneQuest Sight to understand the same relationship between the god and the other worlds and how that gods spells 'work'.

First off I would make RuneQuest Sight a skill. God Learners would then learn a specific gods Theology and use that knowledge in conjunction with RuneQuest Sight to steal that gods powers while on HeroQuests. Yeah, Learning about gods so you can steal their shit, sounds like a very God Learner thing to do to me. I want it.

I'm thinking it will work like this, the GL Bastard has to know what spell he is after and perform some ritual or preparation (I don't want them to be able to just grab spells willy nilly), go on a HeroQuest and try to make sure said spell is cast, and attempt to unravel it's secrets (learn it). Succeeding at all of that, they will be able to cast the spell, using the appropriate Theology, and Manipulate it. It is a lot of work, but the rewards will be great. Sever Spirit on 20 targets anyone? Well, if such a spell existed I mean.

Any thoughts? If you've taken the time to read this whole thing you might as well go the extra inch and let me know what you think.

Thanks,

Ru

 

[homerjsinnott]

Vivamort anyone?

 

[GbajiTheDeceiver]

I don't know whether or not I know more or less, but to me it seems a beautiful idea well worth pursuing.

 

[elgrin]

I am certain I know much less than Rurik, however the idea has a coherence about it that appeals to me. Also the idea that a GLB can prepare for, and go on, a complete Heroquest, and then fail to get the one Spell he is after to be cast and therefore lose the opportunity (forever?) to steal it, looks a very neat downside.
If played this way, it could restrict those intent on stealing to the very good or very influential GLB's.

 

[Voriof]

There's a school for you in Cults of Glorantha 2. The School of Hwathorian Mysteries specializes in stealing the magic of various divinities.

And you know its cool because the original draft was written by Robin Laws for G:tSA but cut for space and then fleshed out by yours truly.

Jeff

 

[Rurik]

There's a school for you in Cults of Glorantha 2. The School of Hwathorian Mysteries specializes in stealing the magic of various divinities.

And you know its cool because the original draft was written by Robin Laws for G:tSA but cut for space and then fleshed out by yours truly.

Jeff

Damn You and Cults 2!

I had some ideas for spirit combat ready to flesh out, but that cursed Cults 2 has Shamanism and spirit magic, so I have to wait for that.

Now this.

:evil:

Seriously though, sounds cool. I really like what you and Robin have done so far (and DBC too), so this Robin/Jeff Divine Spell stealing stuff sounds right up my alley.

I can't wait for Cults 2 even more now.

EDIT: And a question: do my explanations of how it might work pretty much jive with how the other worlds of Glorantha relate/interact? I'm not as up on that stuff as I am sure you are.

 

[Rurik]

I don't know whether or not I know more or less, but to me it seems a beautiful idea well worth pursuing.

Thanks.

I am certain I know much less than Rurik, however the idea has a coherence about it that appeals to me. Also the idea that a GLB can prepare for, and go on, a complete Heroquest, and then fail to get the one Spell he is after to be cast and therefore lose the opportunity (forever?) to steal it, looks a very neat downside.
If played this way, it could restrict those intent on stealing to the very good or very influential GLB's.

Hmm. I hadn't thought of making it one shot only, but that has potential. Maybe they need to increase their theology a certain number of points before trying agin - or maybe they can try again only by attempting to steal the spell from a different god that has the same spell (if one exists).

I was figuring that as part of the process the GL Bastard would have to make at some point a Theology Roll (preparation stage?), a RuneQuest Sight Roll (maybe at the time the spell is cast and the attempt to steal its' secret occurs), and do something else, as yet undetermined - maybe a POW sacrifice or something. Failure preventing the GLB from trying again might be a good enough limiting factor. I was envisioning this as needing to be hard (as the potential power is huge), but not so hard as to not be worth the effort/risk.

 

[soltakss]

In the past, Godlearners had a little contest they could do where they quizzed a deity about something and if they won they got some knowledge or power from the deity and if they lost they had to teach the deity something.

I can see this increasing Lore (Specific Theology) by a series of contests with the deity.

Also, it is quite possible that Godlearners can get Lore (All Theologies) and use it as a substitute.

Your ideas would work pretty well on their own without this contest, though.

 

[homerjsinnott]

Vivamort anyone?

I want to add a little to this cause it sounded as if I was slagging off your idea. (and I wasn't)
But what I was thinking was that sorcerous vampire, could they be a remnant of the God Learners? (In the 3rd age) Or that Vivamort could be a GL legacy?

Something to think about.

 

[Yoda300]

Now we have a Theology skill for each god, or aspect of a god, and that skill determines your chance of success. When first rationalizing this after reading the Companion I figured that Theology(god) was a measure of devotion to that god. The more you learn, the more devotion you show, and the more likely your god is to 'respond' when you need to cast a spell (in an abstract way, Orlanth is not sitting around saying I should grant this spell to so and so at this time because he studied hard this week). This explanation worked, but would not apply to God Learners. How do they cast Divine Spells?

No. You would have increase and decrease of the skill then, according to actual devotion. I think an apostate would retain full use of his skill.

If the above paragraph is more or less true, the Theology(god) skill could also be seen as a measure of understanding how a particular god interacts with and taps into the power of the (related) otherworlds and turns them into manifestations on the physical world (spells). Now a true theist would not know this in an academic way like a God Learner, they would master it in an abstract way, through learning the rituals, myths, and so on of the god in question, and as a result be better at actually making that gods' magic happen (hence the Theology skill check for casting spells).

That's how I understand it.

 

[Yoda300]

Also, it is quite possible that Godlearners can get Lore (All Theologies) and use it as a substitute.

There's a generic Lore (Theology) skill, MRQ page 28.

 

[simonh]

The God Learners have 'proved' that sorcery is superior to all other forms of magic.

I think they develop sorcery equivalents of divine and rune magic spells, by analyzing the myths and rituals (theology skill), investigating the gods/spirits (heroquesting) used in casting it and researching the otherworld interactions that are invoked using it using RuneQuest Sight.

However the spell they create as a result is a pure sorcery spell. It may not give exactly the bang per buck of the original, and there might be small nuances in it's effects that differ but the basic type of effect is the same.

All IMHO.

 

[Yoda300]

Vivamort anyone?

I want to add a little to this cause it sounded as if I was slagging off your idea. (and I wasn't)
But what I was thinking was that sorcerous vampire, could they be a remnant of the God Learners? (In the 3rd age) Or that Vivamort could be a GL legacy?

Something to think about.

I would prefer this approach. I think God Learner really do Tap the Divine, extracting powers from it at the expanse of the variety of myths. Like: "Great, I got Sever Spirit for my personal use. What ? Humakt lose Oath and Detect Truth too. Too bad. These are useless spells anyway."
Now, we know that Malkioni considers most theism to be Chaos, especially troll's cults. Tapping cults for spells or powers would be very much like Tapping chaos, wich incur certain backfire (see the chaos monk in G: the Second Age). The GL certainly have a way to divert backfire to some sort of dump, probably on the sorcery plane. Just don't forget to empty the dump sometime ...
Vivamort could have had serious backfire, probably Tapping elemental cults.

 

[Voriof]

Vivamort anyone?

I want to add a little to this cause it sounded as if I was slagging off your idea. (and I wasn't)
But what I was thinking was that sorcerous vampire, could they be a remnant of the God Learners? (In the 3rd age) Or that Vivamort could be a GL legacy?

Something to think about.

More of a Gbaji legacy. But I believe the Order of Vivamort is covered in CoG2. For that sorcerous vampire goodness.

Jeff

 

[Rurik]

In the past, Godlearners had a little contest they could do where they quizzed a deity about something and if they won they got some knowledge or power from the deity and if they lost they had to teach the deity something.

I can see this increasing Lore (Specific Theology) by a series of contests with the deity.

Also, it is quite possible that Godlearners can get Lore (All Theologies) and use it as a substitute.

Your ideas would work pretty well on their own without this contest, though.

Actually that contest is pretty cool. Do you have any more info on it? Anything on your website perhaps?

One of the 'problems' facing a God Learner is how to learn a specific theology. For some cults that have at least some 'friendly' temples you may be able to just learn it - but in other cases those in the know are not going to be very cooperative. Knowledge (i.e. ways of improving theology) would have to be gained by deception, theivery, coercion, or some other such means.

I had already considered HeroQuesting as a way of increasing Theology and was considering giving an automatic improvement roll in the appropriate theology skill for completing a HeroQuest. The contest you mention sounds like an excellent way a GL could learn the knowledge needed to 'steal' a spell.

 

[Rurik]

The God Learners have 'proved' that sorcery is superior to all other forms of magic.

I think they develop sorcery equivalents of divine and rune magic spells, by analyzing the myths and rituals (theology skill), investigating the gods/spirits (heroquesting) used in casting it and researching the otherworld interactions that are invoked using it using RuneQuest Sight.

However the spell they create as a result is a pure sorcery spell. It may not give exactly the bang per buck of the original, and there might be small nuances in it's effects that differ but the basic type of effect is the same.

All IMHO.

Well that is not that far off from what I am envisioning. Once the GL 'steals' the spell he uses it as a sorcery spell. It is not one use, it does count towards Dedicated POW, and can be manipulated with sorcery skills.

My current thoughts on this is that the GL would not be able to 'teach' this spell as a normal spell though. One would have to 'see' the workings of the spell for himself with RuneQuest sight on a HeroQuest. A teacher could teach the Theology, and train the RQ sight, but the student would have to perform the HeroQuest and 'theft' himself. Note these will be typically be more powerful than standard sorcery spells, due to the approximate 2 to 1 base power of Divine spells over Sorcery and Rune Magic. It does not necessarily preclude having a 'standard' Sorcery spell that has the same effect as a Divine spell but at a normal magnitude for sorcery (about half the Divine version).

I also like the aspect of this that certain GL's would focus on specific theologies. One would become an expert in the theology and magic of specific gods. Some dedicate their study to Sky gods, others to Chaos, etc.

But basically I like the flavor of the whole process. It is more fun to me to actually play out stealing spells than to say 'this spell is a sorcery version of divine spell X'.

 

[Exubae]

Just wonder how Wachaza fits into this as he has been a part of the Malkoni pantheon and their 'naval war god' since the 3rd edition.
How do they worship, or is it a process of detached worship- using the mechanics of the cult but not believing...
It kind of goes against the Malkoni faith to worship anyone but the one god.

 

[Voriof]

The God Learners are nothing if not practical and predatorily syncretic. Think of sepoys and non-citzen marines worshipping a useful god that serves their needs.

Many Malkioni Churches permit the worship of gods as well as the saintly orders. As far as I am concerned, one can be an Orderly and an Initiate. Its when you try to do more than that you get caught up in problems with magic. Anyone seeking deeper religious mysteries must forgo all forms of magic except the one they are fully consecrated to.

At least, that's my interpretation when I wrote CoG. It may differ with others - YGMV and YMRQMV.

Jeff

 

[duncan_disorderly]

Many Malkioni Churches permit the worship of gods as well as the saintly orders. As far as I am concerned, one can be an Orderly and an Initiate. Its when you try to do more than that you get caught up in problems with magic. Anyone seeking deeper religious mysteries must forgo all forms of magic except the one they are fully consecrated to.

On the basis of Heroquest, Users of Sorcery have the advantage that one can become an adept without necessarily forgoing your other forms of magic. The magic rules for RQ and HQ are sufficiently different that translating from one to the other is not really sensible, but the underlying suggeswtion would be that a devoted user of divine magic would find it difficult or impossible to master sorcery, since they see their magic as a gift from their gods rather than as an impersonal force to be used, while sorcerers see their magic as using the impersonal forces provided by the Invisible God and are able to view the magic of gods like Orlanth, Yelm etc as just more of the same...

 

[Voriof]

Edited for less 10 hour drive in the rain with screaming baby terseness:

On the basis of Heroquest, Users of Sorcery have the advantage that one can become an adept without necessarily forgoing your other forms of magic.

No, this is not quite the case according to Greg. And according to HeroQuest, anyone wishing to concentrate their magic must eschew the other forms. In the case of Sorcery, this may allow Adepts to get away with unconcentrated magic but this is unlikely. That said, this is MRQ, not HQ... as you say.

The magic rules for RQ and HQ are sufficiently different that translating from one to the other is not really sensible, but the underlying suggeswtion would be that a devoted user of divine magic would find it difficult or impossible to master sorcery, since they see their magic as a gift from their gods rather than as an impersonal force to be used, while sorcerers see their magic as using the impersonal forces provided by the Invisible God and are able to view the magic of gods like Orlanth, Yelm etc as just more of the same...

No, this is not quite the case. No matter what source of magic you use for your higher magics, be it sorcery, spirit or divine, the usual case is that you may only be consecrated (the MRQ word, which I rather like) to one of them. Thus, anyone wishing to be more than an initiate, practitioner, or orderly must eschew the other kinds of magic. This applies to all apprentices, assistant shamans, or acolytes or the more powerful magical roles that succeed them.

This is how Gloranthan magic works, according to Greg. Admittedly, it is also how I best felt that the system would reflect the "Gloranthan realities" as it were.

Hope this helps.

Jeff