stepan.razin
Mongoose
How about giving Drazi a +2 to Come About SA.
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Drazi suggestion
- Thread starter stepan.razin
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stepan.razin
Mongoose
Grunvald said:Most of the Drazi already have 2 turns why give them a bonus just so they can have a third???
So that they can be somewhat playable.
Foxmeister
Mongoose
Actually, it doesn't sound like a bad idea to me. Something tells me though that it should only apply in a pure Drazi fleet (i.e. not a League/AOL one). I can't think of a single good reason why, but it's just a feeling.
Regards,
Dave
Regards,
Dave
This is one of the big things that TTT is supposed to help with. Giving the Drazi more opportunities to fire.
Due to high speed Drazi often need more that a 90 degree turn to get a shot. Ships with F arc effectively gain 45 degree on the turn as far as getting a shot. So two 45's is not uncommon at say skirmish, the drazi need to make 3/45 to get as many shots most of the time. Given the total lack of secondary arcs on most ships, this becomes a huge deficit in total shots taken per game. It's not a bad idea... but as was commented on in another thread, in some ways we fixing too many things with the same tool, SAs.
This is leading to two issues. One a vast increase in the effect of the No SA crits, and two is that we're making ships have to succeed constantly at SA rolls just perform adequately in the SA rich environment. We need to look at a new set of tools at some point rather than pouring more and more options onto a single tool.
Ripple
Due to high speed Drazi often need more that a 90 degree turn to get a shot. Ships with F arc effectively gain 45 degree on the turn as far as getting a shot. So two 45's is not uncommon at say skirmish, the drazi need to make 3/45 to get as many shots most of the time. Given the total lack of secondary arcs on most ships, this becomes a huge deficit in total shots taken per game. It's not a bad idea... but as was commented on in another thread, in some ways we fixing too many things with the same tool, SAs.
This is leading to two issues. One a vast increase in the effect of the No SA crits, and two is that we're making ships have to succeed constantly at SA rolls just perform adequately in the SA rich environment. We need to look at a new set of tools at some point rather than pouring more and more options onto a single tool.
Ripple
stepan.razin
Mongoose
Just seems like a very simple way to make Drazi a playable fleet. TTT is too hard to pull of to make much of a difference.
I am personally not a big fan of current SA rules, they make no logical sense to me. That High Energy Turn SA that was discussed for ISA, would be nice fit for the drazi as well.
I am personally not a big fan of current SA rules, they make no logical sense to me. That High Energy Turn SA that was discussed for ISA, would be nice fit for the drazi as well.
I've seen the Drazi play and i've had a little go with them myself and saying give them a bonus to make them playable is utter rubbish!
True they are a difficult race to play with but thats supposed to be the point!
If they did not have nearly all bore sight weaponry, and if they have access to an extra turn made easier from them where would the race feature be?
It would be just another boring fleet with no advantage or disadvantage!
The bore sight and 2 turns (not to mention AGILE) is what makes the Drazi what they are!
So i'd say no you dont get an extra turn made easier just for you, cause if that where to be the case lets start taking apart every fleet in the book and see where we can make them all easier!
True they are a difficult race to play with but thats supposed to be the point!
If they did not have nearly all bore sight weaponry, and if they have access to an extra turn made easier from them where would the race feature be?
It would be just another boring fleet with no advantage or disadvantage!
The bore sight and 2 turns (not to mention AGILE) is what makes the Drazi what they are!
So i'd say no you dont get an extra turn made easier just for you, cause if that where to be the case lets start taking apart every fleet in the book and see where we can make them all easier!
Yes, easier Come About rolls wouldn't help. But TTT would help a little.Tolwyn said:In tournaments Drazi are nearly banned by the 8 ships limit.
A way to make them playable under this conditions might be a good idea.
I hope you don't complain about anything in the game Grunvald... as essentially the logic you've just set out is there is no balance in the game, some races are supposed to be hard and some easy. So if something just steamrollers you, that's the way it's supposed to be.
Additional sinks would help, but given the 'small ships' rule and new FAP chart, the game is going away from any way to 'out sink' your opponent, so you'll need to think in a different direction.
TTT helps, but is unreliable enough that it will still keep them out of tourney contention.
The easier Come About is actually a really great way to get ships to fire during the third turn of the game, when you would normally be stuck doing nothing. I'm not sure it's needed, given the other orders being proposed, but it is much more likely a way to get the Drazi to fire often enough to survive a tourney than getting more sinks.
Ripple
Additional sinks would help, but given the 'small ships' rule and new FAP chart, the game is going away from any way to 'out sink' your opponent, so you'll need to think in a different direction.
TTT helps, but is unreliable enough that it will still keep them out of tourney contention.
The easier Come About is actually a really great way to get ships to fire during the third turn of the game, when you would normally be stuck doing nothing. I'm not sure it's needed, given the other orders being proposed, but it is much more likely a way to get the Drazi to fire often enough to survive a tourney than getting more sinks.
Ripple
i dont see whats so hard with the drazi. they generally have 2 turns & agile. the main thing is that they are boresight, not that they lack ability to get onto targets when they are there.
one thing to remember when using drazi as they are agile is if you stare right down a lumbering ships throat or right up his backside he cant get off the boresight (this works for any boresight ship but drazi are agile enough to pull it off regularly).
one thing to remember when using drazi as they are agile is if you stare right down a lumbering ships throat or right up his backside he cant get off the boresight (this works for any boresight ship but drazi are agile enough to pull it off regularly).
Ripple said:I hope you don't complain about anything in the game Grunvald... as essentially the logic you've just set out is there is no balance in the game, some races are supposed to be hard and some easy. So if something just steamrollers you, that's the way it's supposed to be.
I have never said a word about balance!
True there are some ships that could do with being "balanced a bit"!
But what i was commenting on is that some FLEETS are more difficult to play with than others!!!
If every fleet was the same in game play the only difference then would be what you roll on the dice!
Every fleet is different and need different tactics to play with!
THAT is what i was commenting on.
NOT Balance!
The Drazi do not need an easier roll for Come About, as i said earlier they get 2 turns on most of their ships and are agile!
Besides it was a suggestion in the first place!
if TTT gets working then that will make them easier to play with anyway!
nekomata fuyu
Mongoose
You specifically say that the Drazi are meant to be a more difficult race to play, so yes, you are saying that the Drazi should be weaker balance-wise that some other fleets, regardless of if that's what you meant to say. It's possible to make fleets play differently without making one harder to use than the other, and that's the whole point of what we're trying to achieve here.Grunvald said:True they are a difficult race to play with but thats supposed to be the point!
nekomata fuyu said:You specifically say that the Drazi are meant to be a more difficult race to play, so yes, you are saying that the Drazi should be weaker balance-wise that some other fleets, regardless of if that's what you meant to say.Grunvald said:True they are a difficult race to play with but thats supposed to be the point!
Read into it what you want, when you are playing with a race that something like 90% of its weaponry is bore sight, it is not a fleet for beginners!
You have always got to think at least several moves ahead!
Although you should be doing this with any fleet anyway it is especially important with the Drazi. THAT is what is more difficult!
And if ppl want to start on about balance again what about the shadows hyperspace mastery appear where you want when you want!!
Now is that fair and balanced?
It is always going to be the problem that you can write something in the forums and ppl will read something entirly different into it!
Everything should be taken into context and taken with a pinch of salt!
Grun... you using almost the exact same words that were said about the raiders at one point. Which was later clarified to be 'more difficult = weaker.'
No one is suggesting that there be any less flavor in the Drazi fleet. The flavor is that you must face directly toward your opponent when you fire. You may not make side passes, you may not dodge out of a dangerous arc and still expect to fire.
Agile helps because you can 'slide' much earlier, but you main issue is still a range on your guns that almost forces you to overfly on the second turn of shooting at the same target. You usually cannot use All Stop like other races to slow down, you can vs lumbering ships, but it's unlikely a typical drazi hull a pl or two lower than its target will survive there for a second shot.
Anyway, like I said above... its not a bad idea... overflight passes followed by a swing around turn isn't a bad way to play. It just doesn't work right now because it takes to long to get back in the fight by almost exactly one 45 turn... thus it wouldn't hurt to speed things up a bit more reliably. This is really only a big deal in tourney where you have limited time to play... so getting shots in early is often the difference between winning and losing, the tourney if not the game as most tourneys are using some for of tourney points based on spread of vps and time limited games rather than turn limited or objective limited.
Burger's is right on in that the Drazi need a way to maintain a significant number of extra sinks on the table, even with TTT and Overrun, largely because they are hard to pull off/get any real effect out of. With the new breakdowns and small ships rules, all the obvious ways to do that went out the window, as the only real efficient breakdown just became the constant one level drop all the way to patrol for most races. This means rough activation parity most of the time, give or take one.
So looking at other ideas isn't a bad move. Just maybe not this time...
Ripple
No one is suggesting that there be any less flavor in the Drazi fleet. The flavor is that you must face directly toward your opponent when you fire. You may not make side passes, you may not dodge out of a dangerous arc and still expect to fire.
Agile helps because you can 'slide' much earlier, but you main issue is still a range on your guns that almost forces you to overfly on the second turn of shooting at the same target. You usually cannot use All Stop like other races to slow down, you can vs lumbering ships, but it's unlikely a typical drazi hull a pl or two lower than its target will survive there for a second shot.
Anyway, like I said above... its not a bad idea... overflight passes followed by a swing around turn isn't a bad way to play. It just doesn't work right now because it takes to long to get back in the fight by almost exactly one 45 turn... thus it wouldn't hurt to speed things up a bit more reliably. This is really only a big deal in tourney where you have limited time to play... so getting shots in early is often the difference between winning and losing, the tourney if not the game as most tourneys are using some for of tourney points based on spread of vps and time limited games rather than turn limited or objective limited.
Burger's is right on in that the Drazi need a way to maintain a significant number of extra sinks on the table, even with TTT and Overrun, largely because they are hard to pull off/get any real effect out of. With the new breakdowns and small ships rules, all the obvious ways to do that went out the window, as the only real efficient breakdown just became the constant one level drop all the way to patrol for most races. This means rough activation parity most of the time, give or take one.
So looking at other ideas isn't a bad move. Just maybe not this time...
Ripple
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