Doubleweapons

[Anonymous]

Looking over the staff, I realized that it is not treated as a double weapon. Is this on purpose? No way a Khemite could use two-weapon fighting to do 2D4/2D4 damage?
Was there any official comment on this if its been asked before?

 

[Iron_Chef]

Staff could be used as a double weapon (don't think was official, but agreed upon as sound by a lot of people in this forum). There was a thread on this a week or two back...

 

[Johannixx]

I see nothing wrong with using a staff as a double weapon, just don't start importing all those insanely idiotic double-bladed axes and swords from D&D.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Does a staff have reach? If it does I'd suggest that it wouldn't have reach if used as a double weapon.

 

[Anonymous]

Yes, it would make sense not to allow reach I suppose, not that it matters that much. At least, I do not go into the gory details all too much.

Anyway, one more thing. The mongoose version of TWF reduces penalties of twf to 0/-2, not -2/-2 like wizards does. Is this again, deliberate? (good move too).

 

[Johannixx]

Yes, it would make sense not to allow reach I suppose, not that it matters that much. At least, I do not go into the gory details all too much.

Anyway, one more thing. The mongoose version of TWF reduces penalties of twf to 0/-2, not -2/-2 like wizards does. Is this again, deliberate? (good move too).

Actually, it reduces it to 0/0 with an off-hand light weapon, or -4/-4 with two one-handed weapons.

 

[argo]

I am going to allow the staff to be used as a double weapon with 5' reach or as a two-handed weapon with 10' reach. The player can "change his grip" once per round as a free action. Though I have to say, I can't really think of any other double weapon that would really fit in Hyborea without breaking the flavor. Maybe allow a person to TWF with a spear (blade and but end) with a feat or something. Defineatly no double bladed swords though.

Heh, Khitan Scholar with Oriental Magic style and Weapon Focus [Staff]. Should throw the players for a loop when the short skinny guy with the stick starts beating the crap out of them. :twisted:

 

[Yokiboy]

I am going to allow the staff to be used as a double weapon with 5' reach or as a two-handed weapon with 10' reach. The player can "change his grip" once per round as a free action. Though I have to say, I can't really think of any other double weapon that would really fit in Hyborea without breaking the flavor. Maybe allow a person to TWF with a spear (blade and but end) with a feat or something. Defineatly no double bladed swords though.

Heh, Khitan Scholar with Oriental Magic style and Weapon Focus [Staff]. Should throw the players for a loop when the short skinny guy with the stick starts beating the crap out of them. :twisted:

Great ideas Argo, how about the following feat:

:arrow: Double Weapon Expert [general, soldier]
Prerequisite: Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization with Reach Weapon
Benefit: Can use the Reach Weapon as a double weapon with 5ft reach, or as a regular two-handed 10ft+ reach weapon. When treating weapon as double weapon, the shaft deals 2d4 bludgeoning damage (like a staff). Switching grip is a Free Action.

[edited damage, raised it from Club 1d8 to Staff 2d4;
added switching grip as a Free Action]

What do you think?

TTFN,

Yokiboy

 

[Johannixx]

Personally, I think that as long as you keep the butt damage (and AP) equal to a club, you shouldn't need a feat to use a spear as a non-reach double weapon. Pretty much only a war spear or possibly a hunting spear could be used like that, as a pike is far too long and unwieldy. Of course, the staff has already been discussed, so that gets included as well. It's no more unbalancing than a broadsword and club, after all.

 

[Yokiboy]

Personally, I think that as long as you keep the butt damage (and AP) equal to a club, you shouldn't need a feat to use a spear as a non-reach double weapon. Pretty much only a war spear or possibly a hunting spear could be used like that, as a pike is far too long and unwieldy. Of course, the staff has already been discussed, so that gets included as well. It's no more unbalancing than a broadsword and club, after all.

Well I see one of the big advantages being that you don't have to drop your weapon and get a smaller one out to be effective toe-to-toe. Isn't that worth a feat, or is that perhaps already covered by Quick Draw?

I hadn't actually noticed that the Pollaxe, Bardiche and Bill weren't Reach weapons. That really puts a damper on my suggested feat.

So how about this instead:

Polearm Expert [general, soldier]
Prerequisite: Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization with Reach Weapon
Benefit: Can use polearms as a double weapons with 5ft reach, or as a two-handed 10ft+ reach weapon. When treating weapon as double weapon, the shaft deals 2d4 bludgeoning damage (like a Staff). Switching grip is a Free Action.
Special: Bardiche, Bill, Lance, Pollaxe, Staff, and War Spear qualify as polearms for this feat.

I included the Lance only as the description of the weapon states that it can be used as a War Spear unmounted.

TTFN,

Yokiboy

 

[AZZA]

Polearm Expert [general, soldier]
Prerequisite: Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization with Reach Weapon
Benefit: Can use polearms as a double weapons with 5ft reach, or as a two-handed 10ft+ reach weapon. When treating weapon as double weapon, the shaft deals 2d4 bludgeoning damage (like a Staff). Switching grip is a Free Action.
Special: Bardiche, Bill, Lance, Pollaxe, Staff, and War Spear qualify as polearms for this feat.

I like the idea but surely this makes polearms waaaay too good. It gives this soldier a threat range for AOP of 10' and two attacks against you at no penalty, remember that the -2 has been removed from Conan, if you get within 5 feet of him.
Wouldn't this mean I could also use two weapon defense with my polearm when using it as a double weapon. Big damage/ Big AP and +2 Parry defense. :shock:
This on top of already having the biggest damage dealing weapons increase in the amount of damage they can inflict in a round.
And there I was talking before at how the greatsword as an exotic weapon didnt really match up well against the polearms as they were. :shock:
With this feat I reakon a sword wielder would be a rare breed indeed.

 

[argo]

:arrow: Double Weapon Expert [general, soldier]
Prerequisite: Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization with Reach Weapon
Benefit: Can use the Reach Weapon as a double weapon with 5ft reach, or as a regular two-handed 10ft+ reach weapon. When treating weapon as double weapon, the shaft deals 2d4 bludgeoning damage (like a staff). Switching grip is a Free Action.

[edited damage, raised it from Club 1d8 to Staff 2d4;
added switching grip as a Free Action]

What do you think?

Good start, and much better than the second attempt. I would not advise a feat that allowed you to use a pollaxe, etc. as a reach weapon. They are already plenty good without it (you will notice that the reach weapons tend to have slightly lower damage and AP than non reach). Even if such a feat were balanced it would be balanced as a feat unto iteslf, not combined with another ability that lets you use that reach weapon as a double weapon.

Now, onto the first version. First off the pre-reqs: I think that Weapon Focus is sufficent. This just doesn't feel like a third-tier feat to me, and not one that should be restricted to fourth level soldiers. Secondly the damage: the primary benefit of this feat is to let you fight with both 5' and 10' reach with one weapon, thus circumventing the major limitation of reach weapons, plus the haft of a spear is not exactly crafted as a weapon. Therefore I think that damage should be 1d6. That is better than pommel damage, which is the closest analog here, but not so good as an actual club (which is a one-handed weapon and would incurr TWF penalties, the off hand attack of a double weapon counts as light so should be less than one-handed damage).

Otherwise looks good. Please remember that, other than possibly talking, you can only perform free actions on your innitative. Enforcing that rule will prevent munchy nonsense involving AoO's. Fruthermore, it is not RAW but I would advise only alowing them to "change grips" once per round unless they have the Quick Draw feat. Again, that is to prevent munchkin abuse.

Happy gamming.

 

[Yokiboy]

I love the feedback, you brought up some very valid points, but now I'm getting obsessed with the idea of turning this into a feat.

How about this, attempt number 3:

Spear Harmony [general, soldier]
Description: You’re at complete harmony with your weapon of choice, the War Spear.
Prerequisite: Weapon Focus (War Spear), Southern Islander or Southern Black Kingdom Tribesman, Kushite or Northern Black Kingdom Tribesman
Benefit: Can use a War Spear as a double weapon with 5ft reach, or normally as a two-handed 10ft reach weapon. When treating the War Spear as a double weapon, the butt of the spear deals 1d6 bludgeoning damage, and counts as a Light Weapon. Switching grip is a Free Action, which can only be performed once per round during your Initiative.

I kept the name of the races just like they are in the book, instead of lumping together all Black Kingdom Tribesmen, just so people can easily identify their character's race.

[Edited: removed Quick Draw as a requirement, in accordance with Argo's suggestions.]

TTFN,

Yokiboy

 

[Yokiboy]

And how about these variations:

Polearm Expert [general, soldier]
Prerequisite: Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization with any polearm, Hyborian
Benefit: You can use polearms as double weapons with 5ft reach. When treating weapon as double weapon, the butt of the polearm deals 1d6 bludgeoning damage. Switching grip is a Free Action, which can only be performed once per round during your Initiative.
Special: Bardiche, Bill, Light Lance (treated as Hunting Spear), Pollaxe, Staff, and War Spear qualify as polearms for this feat.

Staff Zen [general, soldier]
Prerequisite: Weapon Focus (Staff), Khitan
Benefit: You can use as a Staff as a double weapons with 5ft reach, or as a two-handed 10ft+ reach weapon. When treating Staff as a double weapon, the butt of the Staff deals 2d4 bludgeoning damage and is treated as a Light Weapon. Switching grip is a Move Action.
Special: With Quick Draw switching grip is a Free Action, which can be performed once per round during your Initiative.

Staff Mastery [general, soldier]
Prerequisite: Staff Zen
Benefit: You can use as a Staff one-handed, with 5ft reach. You are also capable of fighting with two Staffs, one in each hand, treating both as One-Handed Weapons for purposes of Two-Weapon Combat.

I'd appreciate some feedback.

[Edited: removed Quick Draw as a requirement, in accordance with Argo's suggestions.]

TTFN,

Yokiboy

 

[argo]

Spear Harmony [general, soldier]
Description: You’re at complete harmony with your weapon of choice, the War Spear.
Prerequisite: Weapon Focus (War Spear), Quick Draw, Southern Islander or Southern Black Kingdom Tribesman, Kushite or Northern Black Kingdom Tribesman
Benefit: Can use a War Spear as a double weapon with 5ft reach, or normally as a two-handed 10ft reach weapon. When treating the War Spear as a double weapon, the butt of the spear deals 1d6 bludgeoning damage, and counts as a Light Weapon. Switching grip is a Free Action, which can only be performed once per round during your Initiative.

Why is quick draw a prereq? If it is to represent the ability to change from a double grip to a two handed grip then it is redundant, that is what this feat is for. I think that one feat as a prereq is sufficent. Other than that it looks good.

Polearm Expert [general, soldier]
Prerequisite: Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization with any polearm, Quick Draw, Hyborian
Benefit: You can use polearms as double weapons with 5ft reach. When treating weapon as double weapon, the butt of the polearm deals 1d6 bludgeoning damage. Switching grip is a Free Action, which can only be performed once per round during your Initiative.
Special: Bardiche, Bill, Light Lance (treated as Hunting Spear), Pollaxe, Staff, and War Spear qualify as polearms for this feat.

Again, I would lose Quick Draw. I am not sure that it really needs Weapon Spec as a prereq but if you want the ability to be a little bit more rare and special then it is ok. Again, looks good.

Staff Zen [general, soldier]
Prerequisite: Weapon Focus (Staff), Khitan
Benefit: You can use as a Staff as a double weapons with 5ft reach, or as a two-handed 10ft+ reach weapon. When treating Staff as a double weapon, the butt of the Staff deals 2d4 bludgeoning damage and is treated as a Light Weapon. Switching grip is a Move Action.
Special: With Quick Draw switching grip is a Free Action, which can be performed once per round during your Initiative.

Looks good, nothing to add here.

Staff Mastery [general, soldier]
Prerequisite: Staff Zen
Benefit: You can use as a Staff one-handed, with 5ft reach. You are also capable of fighting with two Staffs, one in each hand, treating both as One-Handed Weapons for purposes of Two-Weapon Combat.

Um, why? Why would anyone want this? What advantage is there to wielding two one-handed weapons that do 2d4 over a one-handed and a light weapon that both do 2d4? :?

Overall though I like em. Very good work.

 

[AZZA]

To be honest, having done about a years training in period quarterstaff, I absolutely love that Conan dropped the double weapons. The idea of spinning a weapon round like a kayak paddle is pretty silly IMO. If it were effective then there would really have been double swords and axes in regular use! Sure both ends of a quarterstaff are used in a fight but only as you move forward and you "pole" down the staff for extra reach or as you retreat away from an opponent who has got past the front end of your staff.
Same with the butt end of a polearm. You would only use this when you were desperate and your opponent had managed to get in your guard past the pointy end, and even then only to ward them off while you try to get pack to your optimal distance.
The whole idea of using one end of a weapon then spinning it around to use the other end being faster than using the primary end twice, ie a double thrust from a spear, is pretty unlikely.
Even if you were some kind of eastern martial artist with a jo stick a good european longsword could cut and redouble(cut using the false edge) much quicker than you could hit him with both ends of you staff.
One thing I certainly won't be bringing into Conan would be double weapons.

 

[Yokiboy]

Staff Mastery [general, soldier]
Prerequisite: Staff Zen
Benefit: You can use a Staff one-handed, with 5ft reach. You are also capable of fighting with two Staffs, one in each hand, treating both as One-Handed Weapons for purposes of Two-Weapon Combat.

Um, why? Why would anyone want this? What advantage is there to wielding two one-handed weapons that do 2d4 over a one-handed and a light weapon that both do 2d4? :?

Overall though I like em. Very good work.

LOL! I actually had the same revelation in shower this morning. How about allowing Whirlwind Attacks, or perhas a Devastating Sweep, like the Combat Maneuver? I added the feat only because I think it looks cool when martial artist utilize two staffs, I just wanted a BBEG Khitan to kick some ass with two staffs.

I'd appreciate some ideas on making it a worthwhile feat. Perhaps a good Parry bonus would be in order? What do you think?

TTFN,

Yokiboy

 

[Yokiboy]

The whole idea of using one end of a weapon then spinning it around to use the other end being faster than using the primary end twice, ie a double thrust from a spear, is pretty unlikely.
Even if you were some kind of eastern martial artist with a jo stick a good european longsword could cut and redouble(cut using the false edge) much quicker than you could hit him with both ends of you staff.
One thing I certainly won't be bringing into Conan would be double weapons.

Good arguments... I don't really have a comeback... I do like the idea of staffs being double weapons, because otherwise they're considered quite wimpy by my players. Oh well, I'll think about those feats some more.

TTFN,

Yokiboy

 

[Yokiboy]

Spear Harmony [general, soldier]
Description: You’re at complete harmony with your weapon of choice, the War Spear.
Prerequisite: Weapon Focus (War Spear), Southern Islander or Southern Black Kingdom Tribesman, Kushite or Northern Black Kingdom Tribesman
Benefit: Can use a War Spear as a double weapon with 5ft reach, or normally as a two-handed 10ft reach weapon. When treating the War Spear as a double weapon, the butt of the spear deals 1d6 bludgeoning damage, and counts as a Light Weapon. Switching grip is a Free Action, which can only be performed once per round during your Initiative.

Is Spear Harmony really a cool name for the Feat, or how about Spear Savage or some such, given the races that can get the Feat.

TTFN,

Yokiboy

 

[Iron_Chef]

How about "EXTREME" SPEAR FIGHTER?