Destiny and fate in the Hyborian Age

[Trodax]

I picked up the Dark Horse reprint of the old Marvel Conan comics ("Tower of the Elephant & Other Stories") yesterday. Haven't read comics in years, it was quite fun!

Anyway, the first story went on a lot about Conan's destiny to become King of Aquilonia ("born on a battlefield, destined to be King!"), and Conan even got to see a vision of himself being crowned in the future.

It got me thinking; does destiny and fate have a place in the Hyborian Age? My impression from the Howard tales says no; strong men (and women) make their own destiny, and the future is never set (I'm no Howard expert, so there could be some quotes or so I've forgotten about).

So what do you think? Imagine, for example, a story based on some ancient prophecy, destined to be fulfilled; "He who finds the lost Sword of Bori will become ruler of a mighty kingdom, but he will be forced to betray those closest to him." Appropriate or inappropriate for the Hyborian Age?
Personally, I think this leans a little too much towards D&D and its cosmos of very active gods.

However, if things are changed a bit so that it instead is an age-old curse, uttered by some long dead, evil sorcerer, I think it works. For example; "the 20th King of Aquilonia will be struck dead on his crowning day", doesn't seem inappropriate to me.

What do you think?

 

[Maximo]

Trodax wrote:

does destiny and fate have a place in the Hyborian Age? My impression from the Howard tales says no; strong men (and women) make their own destiny, and the future is never set

I agree. I think the fate thing is more an addition by pastiche writers.

if things are changed a bit so that it instead is an age-old curse, uttered by some long dead, evil sorcerer, I think it works.

That´s a good idea. In fact, I based a short scenario in a similar premise. In that scenario, there was a prophecy which some Shemites believed, so the evil scholar of the show decided to use it to manipulate them.
In the end, I thought it could be funny if players had to fulfill the prophecy themselves, despite not being chosen by fate for it.
Sadly, my players and I never had the time to run this scenario.

 

[Bregales]

Probably not. Unless you look at "A Witch Shall be Born" or The Hour of the Dragon.

 

[Trodax]

Probably not. Unless you look at "A Witch Shall be Born" or The Hour of the Dragon.

Yeah, A Witch Shall be Born is pretty prophetic. However, I don't see that prophecy as deciding the actions or fates of anyone involved; destiny only mandated that a girl bearing the mark of Salome be born every century. This is more in lines with a curse on the nobility of Khauran, some kind of inherited (genetic/magical) defect perhaps.
To me, its quite different from a prophecy proclaiming that Conan is destined to be King (as this type of destiny much more questions the concept of free will).

In what way do you mean destiny played a part in The Hour of the Dragon? Its been a while since a read it.

 

[Bregales]

Me too. I think the witch who takes Conan in mentions something cryptic, as do the priests who shelter him in Tarantia, despite his brushing off fate with a snort.

That whole king destiny thing is not my preference (in this game), I chalk it up to the first movie mania. Great for Pendragon, not for this game for PCs.

Speaking of games, I suppose it could be an adventure hook, where someone approaches a group of PCs swearing it's their destiny to help said NPC (in the adventure). Whether the party believes it or not is irrelevant, so long as said NPC believes it, that's enough conviction for him/her to hook the PCs. There's one idea. Maybe the GM gets the group into it, or uses more obvious stating of "It is your destiny to...." Again, great for Luke Skywalkeer and Darth Vader, I don't go for it for Conan.

 

[argo]

Fate/destiny are very real in Howards writting but they have a dulastic nature to them. A man's destiny is something set before him that he cannot escape, but it only comes true because he does what is needed to make it come true. Conan himself is like a force of nature, a primal storm that no-one can oppose... and no-one can oppose Conan because he has the will (the free will) to sieze the day.

Think of what the cimmerian's say of Crom. Crom does nothing for his people save at birth he gifts them with the strength and will to triumph over their enemies. In other words the diety selects those who will be great and to them he gives the tools that they themselves will use to achieve greatness.

Dichotomy and paradox are the halmarks of all truly great philosophy :wink:


So rise up warriors, and sieze your destiny in your own two hands!

 

[René]

So what do you think? Imagine, for example, a story based on some ancient prophecy, destined to be fulfilled; "He who finds the lost Sword of Bori will become ruler of a mighty kingdom, but he will be forced to betray those closest to him." Appropriate or inappropriate for the Hyborian Age?
Personally, I think this leans a little too much towards D&D and its cosmos of very active gods.

The curse-topic and Salome have already been mentioned, so my 2 cents are: Leave fate-items like the lost sword of Bori out and connect fate with a person. It seems more REHian that an individual fights his way to an eventual fate out of his own resources, not because of some supernatural item (which would be indeed D&D resp. Lord of the Rings).
Compare the new Darkhorse comic, namley the second omnibus, where the bone woman has visions about Conan's fate. At least to me it doesn't look 100% un REHian.

 

[Raven Blackwell]

Foresight like the Bone Woman's visions show possible futures- remember that for all her divinatory skills, the Bone Woman had no idea the actual outcome of Conan and Thoth Amon's encounter. She thought that Conan would help Kuthales[sp?] win but be killed by Amon because it was the most probable future. It was not however what happened.

IMHO the Bone Woman can sense Crom's gift in Conan and wishes to manipulate it for her own purposes as opposed to knowing for sure what his eventual future is.

 

[Etepete]

Maybe all prophets are deluded? Maybe really powerful members of the Black Ring, like Thot Amon, and similar esoterics believe that they are privy to really deep mysteries that allow them to understand the forces behind creation so well they can tell the future, or rather glimpse it. Not as a straightforward prophecy, but as a more intangible feeling off of how things might go. A kind of sixth sense.

But in reality this might be nothing more than their gut instinct, sublimated by their wilful fantasies into "mystic insight". This, I think, would be a suitably cynic view of magic for conan.

then again, they might be on to something, giving a suitable sense of uncertainity.

 

[Trodax]

Maybe all prophets are deluded? Maybe really powerful members of the Black Ring, like Thot Amon, and similar esoterics believe that they are privy to really deep mysteries that allow them to understand the forces behind creation so well they can tell the future, or rather glimpse it. Not as a straightforward prophecy, but as a more intangible feeling off of how things might go. A kind of sixth sense.

But in reality this might be nothing more than their gut instinct, sublimated by their wilful fantasies into "mystic insight". This, I think, would be a suitably cynic view of magic for conan.

then again, they might be on to something, giving a suitable sense of uncertainity.

Excellent point! I very much like this way of handling fate in the Hyborian Age; there should always be a real chance that what transpired wasn't preordained at all, but just happened because of various circumstances (Conan became king because he was a particularly strong, forceful man who was in the right place at the right time, not because of anything decided in advance).

The people of the Hyborian Age certainly believe in their gods, and many of them probably believe that destiny and fate are very real forces, but the possibility must always be kept open that they are totally wrong, and that the world is just a bleak, uncaring place. There must never be definite proof of the gods existence, and I guess thats why I don't really like the concept of destiny in this world; it indicates to me that there is something behind the screen, pulling the strings.

The Hyborian Age should be a cynical place:
You are human. You are too insignificant to have any particular destiny.

But at the same time:
You are human. Your life is in your hands, do with it as you may.

 

[Raven Blackwell]

As was said in the Terminator movies-

"No Fate but what you create."

-sums it up nicely I think. Sorcerers and others manipulate events to try and create a future beneficial to themselves and use what tools they can get their hands on but in truth they are but pieces in the 'game' of life and death itself. I think what people see as 'fate' is often just the cumulative force of all of humanity's past actions coniciding with the ever present natural forces of Creation. Some people might develop a sort of understanding fo the pattern and think of it as mystical- though depending on what you define as 'mystical' it could be agued that they are right. As for Gods, spirits, demons and such- perhaps they are the non-human players in the 'game'? 8)