Dessi Mage: One Trick Pony?

[Anonymous]

Haven't picked up LW yet, but plan to do so in the near future. Anyway, I've had a look through the sneak previews, and while I think an awesome job has been done with the Kai (so much so that I've moved from a position of "I'd prefer a unique system rather than d20" to "Couldn't imagine it being done much better"), I have my reservations about the Dessi Mage.

It's been a while since I've played Lone Wolf, and I only played the 1st and 3rd Grey Star books, which I considered vastly inferior, so maybe the class perfectly captures the style it was trying to evoke. Still, the feeling I get is that a Dessi will spend much of his time just wading into combat. Their powers have some great utility, especially for imaginative players, and I like the way that they have been implemented. However, I think a wider range would have gone a long way to making this a much more playable class, IMO. I can see elementalism and sorcery used a fair bit, but the former is unpredictable and the latter bland. Most of the other powers have wide scope, but only in limited circumstances. This becomes especially apparent when comparing the vast range of capabilities the Kai have.

Or perhaps my impression is completely off base. I wont't personally know until I've seen them in action, but the thoughts of others here would be appreciated. As well as some indication from Mongoose regarding any plans to expand the Elder Arts at a later date.

 

[Anonymous]

While I like all the other classes, and really like the book over all, I too have reservation about the dessi. Compared to the other classes, they are extremely weak, especially at higher levels. All other classes get their abilitites expanded upon after level 10, not so for the dessi, who still gets basic abilitites he could have picked at level 1.

Not only that, but the dessi's arts are just weaker. The brotherhood shield spell is superior to force shield from sorcery. The brotherhood word of power version grants around 40 pts of DR at the cost of around 3 endurance (either 2, 3 or 4, don't remember) and lasts rounds/class level.

The dessi, at level 10, gets 10 DR from force shield, and it costs 4 WP EACH round. Heck, the telchos gets stronger magic at higher levels. Correct me if I am wrong, but did not page/dever plan to expand grey stars abilities, gs seemed to be following the same basic progression lone wolf had. I think the dev's thought that the wizards staff would satisfy the players

This is a shame, since I really liked the grey star books. With everyone wanting to play kai, I had though it would be a good idea to be able to play a dessi whenever my group finishes up with our current game, and starts LW. Unfortunately, now I think I will play a bortherhood mage, so that my char will actually go up in power as he levels up. Hopefully, the devs can addenda this class and its abilitites at some point to make it playable at higher levels.

 

[redlaco]

Well if you think the dessi mage is unbalanced, use rule no 1 in any game system...
What, you don't remember the basic? If you don't like a rule, change it to suit your taste.
Of course it's easier when you're the Game Master...

It's easy, really : just play with the numbers until you feel it's right. Voilà!

 

[SableWyvern]

Yeah, if I need to, I will change things. It doesn't hurt to look for the opinions of others though.

Besides which, I don't actually have the book yet, so this discussion is part of my Lone Wolf fix while I try and maintain my patience.

 

[August]

A weigh-in from the Author...

The Dessi are not weaker than the other character classes, though it might ceratinly appear that way from the numbers if that's all you compare. They have a number of advantages, not the least of which are their ability to transfer energy to each other, the fact that they start with and consistently have a superior Will save, and they have a better Base Magical Damage than the Brotherhood to boot.

Oh yeah, and they have a lifespan that measures in hundreds of years. That's pretty cool too.

However, please do not despair if you still think magical power is weaker for the Dessi; they were given slightly less robust abilities on purpose. After all, I had to have room for the Greater Arts as an epic enhancement, now didn't I? <chuckle> That's coming soon, I promise.

Take care,
-August

 

[Anonymous]

While I understand sable (dessi being my fave class yet), this has been discussed before, and august told us that he might include a shianti trained sorceror class sometime in the future, with complete greater magiks/elder art progression. In a word, think grey star.

However, the dessi does hold quite a few tricks up its sleeve. Allow me to elaborate;

The dessi uses its BMCS (which is equivelent to the base combat skill of a sommerlund knight!) to attack with his staff, in both melee and ranged attacks (bolts of magik from wizards staff). Add in the fact that dessi adds in his intelligence modifier to the attack roll, PLUS the +2 from wizards staff (+1 mastercraft +1 magikal), the dessi can be the heaviest hitter in the party at lower levels, doing the highest damage as well. (5d6 + 2 from mastercraft/magikal staff) at a cost of 5 willpower.

As well, apart from the kai, the dessi is the only other class that can hold its own in psychic combat. At lower levels, the dessi's high willpower protects it from taking endurance damage, until the dessi can take care of whatever is generating the psychic attack. The player of the brotherhood wizards wont be laughing for long when he meets up with the first enemy to use psychic attacks. (which can't be counterspelled as well).

For tips on using the elementalism power, (my fave!!), turn to the 'Adventuring in Magamund' section of the rulebook, and check out the weather tables. Its going to be a tricky though, to decide what the dessi is capable of ( a 1st level dessi summoning up a tornado might be a bit to powerful), but you should be able to do it. (I wish however, there had been some mention of the dessi's powers in this section, so as to clue in gm's who might otherwise not get the hint )

I agree about the sorcery though, you may want to addenda Force SHield to give 2 pts of DR/ dessi class level. Also, you may wish to addenda Force Grasp; since a kai lord with mind over matter can lift much much heavier loads. Also remember, that force shield blocks both melee and magikal attacks, whilst the brotherhood's shield spell, until he gets a word of power for it, only blocks melee. Keep that in mind next time the player of the brotherhood wizard sniggers at you.

Otherwise, do play as a dessi, you will have a blast. By the time you get to level 10, hopefully we will have the MoM supp in our hands, and you can switch over to the s.s. if its been made available.

 

[Anonymous]

Oh and thanks again august, for the tasty blurb. If possible, please include more info on both the shanti as well as their enemies the ice demons.

By the way, I hope this means the LW rpg is selling really well? (Not surprising given its quality, and the hard work that went into it.).

 

[Anonymous]

Hem..

Just passing through...

Summarily read the "Dessi mages are weaker" thread.

Are you sure?

I GM'd LW for Lvl3 characters, and I can tell you that the Dessi mage overpowered the other characters (Sommlending knight, Kai lord, Dwarven Gunner).

As a matter of fact, the Dwarven Gunner revaled itself to be quite weaker than other classes.

To reestablish game balance, I've decide that the "Secret of the Gun" feats will be acquired by gunners every two levels (and not three levels).

 

[elijah-sabretooth]

I feel the Dessi is more powerful than the Brotherhood mage...
just 3 factors:

Magic Staff

Willpower

Psichic defense.

 

[DuskFox]

Making up for lesser abilities with a stronger saving throw is lame. They're not as useful. Sure, they may save your life in a pinch, and they may come in handy for certain tests, but for regular utility, they don't compare.

 

[jadrax]

I GM'd LW for Lvl3 characters, and I can tell you that the Dessi mage overpowered the other characters (Sommlending knight, Kai lord, Dwarven Gunner).

As a matter of fact, the Dwarven Gunner revaled itself to be quite weaker than other classes.

Thats pretty much what my game has shown, the Dessi Wizards Staff is an awsome ability.

 

[Wannabe Drakkar]

unfortunately i've not had much chance to witness the dessi, i had one twit who couldnt roleplay at all, so i joked there was a cardboard cut out of a dessi magician following the party around
and another player who showed promise then never showed up again
they do seem very spectacular though

 

[Anonymous]

If you think the dessi are cool you should see the shianti.

 

[ShadowFox]

The Shianti Sorcerer from Magic of Magnamund is way powerful, and you should be really careful letting a player have one in your party. They tend to overshadow the other characters, particularly other spellcasters. They're best used in solo games, or if they're a level or two lower than the rest of the party (which helps balance their power level).

 

[Anonymous]

The Shianti Sorcerer from Magic of Magnamund is way powerful, and you should be really careful letting a player have one in your party. They tend to overshadow the other characters, particularly other spellcasters. They're best used in solo games, or if they're a level or two lower than the rest of the party (which helps balance their power level).

The class is powerful, and it should be since the arts of the shianti are superior to any other yet seen on magnamund.

Howevev, the reason it seems too powerful is only because the dessi was released first, had the shianti sorc been released in the rulebook along with the kai class and the brotherhood mage it would not seem near as powerful, probably on a par with the kai lord.

And making them a level or two lower would be rather cheap and unfair on the player; I mean, if you have a ki lord and a shadaki buccaneer in the same party, would you tell the kai player to lower his levels by 2?

 

[DuskFox]

The Dessi are not weaker than the other character classes, though it might ceratinly appear that way from the numbers if that's all you compare. They have a number of advantages, not the least of which are their ability to transfer energy to each other, the fact that they start with and consistently have a superior Will save, and they have a better Base Magical Damage than the Brotherhood to boot.

Oh yeah, and they have a lifespan that measures in hundreds of years. That's pretty cool too.

There are two big flaws here.

The first (and most obvious) is that while the Dessi Mages may live for hundreds of years, no campaign is going to last for hundreds of years. It's a cute character trait, but it has no in-game benefit.

The second issue is that the ability to transfer energy between one another is limited to Dessi characters. What party is going to have multiple Dessi characters? I mean, if there's more than one Dessi Mage, that's just weird, and even with the cool Vakeros class you're still looking at a low likelihood when there are so many other classes to choose from. It's like saying, "Dwarven Gunners can use teamwork to carry out strategic attacks, adding +2 to their attack so long as there is another Gunner nearby." Sure, that's cool, but who's going to have two Gunners? Most game groups don't double up on the same class, and if they do, I doubt it's going to be the Dessi Mage.

Just my two Lune.

 

[ShadowFox]

The class is powerful, and it should be since the arts of the shianti are superior to any other yet seen on magnamund.

Howevev, the reason it seems too powerful is only because the dessi was released first, had the shianti sorc been released in the rulebook along with the kai class and the brotherhood mage it would not seem near as powerful, probably on a par with the kai lord.

And making them a level or two lower would be rather cheap and unfair on the player; I mean, if you have a ki lord and a shadaki buccaneer in the same party, would you tell the kai player to lower his levels by 2?

I don't see how the release dates of the classes have anything to do with their comparative power levels. Shianti Sorcerer is more powerful, and the fact that it came out later doesn't mitigate that fact.

Also, I don't see the point of your comparison with the Kai Lord. Kai are not so dramatically overpowered compared to the other core classes, and I would not suggest a player take a lower level Kai in a mixed group. And for the record, I never force a player to pick a class or impose arbitrary rules on them. If one of my players wanted to play a Shianti, I would explain the issue with relative power level, and ask if they would be willing to play at a lower level. If not, I'd probably remove the class as a playable choice, rather than force something on a player. My suggestion was intended to promote game balance so that everyone has fun, and after 15 years of successful GMing, I don't think that makes me cheap or unfair.

 

[Anonymous]

The class is powerful, and it should be since the arts of the shianti are superior to any other yet seen on magnamund.

Howevev, the reason it seems too powerful is only because the dessi was released first, had the shianti sorc been released in the rulebook along with the kai class and the brotherhood mage it would not seem near as powerful, probably on a par with the kai lord.

And making them a level or two lower would be rather cheap and unfair on the player; I mean, if you have a ki lord and a shadaki buccaneer in the same party, would you tell the kai player to lower his levels by 2?

I don't see how the release dates of the classes have anything to do with their comparative power levels. Shianti Sorcerer is more powerful, and the fact that it came out later doesn't mitigate that fact.

Also, I don't see the point of your comparison with the Kai Lord. Kai are not so dramatically overpowered compared to the other core classes, and I would not suggest a player take a lower level Kai in a mixed group. And for the record, I never force a player to pick a class or impose arbitrary rules on them. If one of my players wanted to play a Shianti, I would explain the issue with relative power level, and ask if they would be willing to play at a lower level. If not, I'd probably remove the class as a playable choice, rather than force something on a player. My suggestion was intended to promote game balance so that everyone has fun, and after 15 years of successful GMing, I don't think that makes me cheap or unfair.

You do not think removing a player selected class AFTER said player had selected it is not forcing something on said player? Ok... :shock:

The dessi was basically a watered down version of the shianti, it was done so because at the time August and Mongoose wanted players to have a grey-star type class, yet at the same time wanted to have a dessi oriented class. However the rpg sold really well and there was a HUGE demand for the shianti class, thus it was presented in the mom supplement.

As for the kai lord, its very powerful if min-maxed to the extreme, which is not hard to do. If you have mindblast at level 5, then the kai can make a full attack, a free psi attack, additional damage from various mindblast tiers, AND other bonuses to attack AND damage from weaponskill tiers and other tiers.

All in the same round.

Compare that to classes like the shadaki buccaneer and it becomes obvious the kai class is much stronger.

The shianti is a powerful class in the same vein; yet it only seems overpoweering when compared to the dessi, because the shianti gets the lesser arts much sooner, and gets greater arts as well. And thats ebcause of reasons I mentioned above; the dessi was presented first before the shianti was designed.

When compared to the brotherhood wizard the dessi its not that powerful, since lightning hand is still a stronger spell at higher levels than anything the shitnti can get. Brotherhood wizards also get counterspell, which they can use to nullify the shianti's staff.

All in all its a fair tradeoff, and makes the shianti a fun class to play.

 

[DuskFox]

You do not think removing a player selected class AFTER said player had selected it is not forcing something on said player? Ok... :shock:

Honestly, I think this statement is just meant to be inflammatory. He didn't say he doesn't force certain decisions on players, he says he doesn't force them to play a certain class. Removing a class from candidacy is not the same as requiring someone to play a certain class. It just narrows the field, and that's the GM's prerogative, to be completely honest--if I tell someone they can't play any Darklands classes and that I don't want any Telchos Warriors in the game, it is not the same as telling someone they have to play a Shadaki Buccaneer. It's a GM's job to force players to do things in one way or another--the GM provides the setting and sets the boundaries, and if a modicum of authority is not provided, things very quickly turn sour.

Anyhow... basically just pointing out here that what he said is not the same as what you said, and boo urns for intentionally making a thing of it.

 

[Anonymous]

No, the narrator is completely within his rights to disallow or allow anything in his game. Thats completly fine. However, Shadow claims he asks player what class they wish to play, if anyone says shianti THEN he disallows the class (giving them a choice of reduced levels or not taking the class). This sort of thing should be made clear in the start of the game, no? Otherwise it IS forcing things a bit, 'arbitarily' or not.

A game is a collective group effort and certain things should be made clear at the start, if and when possible, (though possible exceptions definately occur)