Defensive Martial Arts

A

Anonymous

Guest
I have a quick question about this feat.

Does this allow me to still attack even though I choose the total defense combat option.

How total defense is worded, lets me believe I do not get any attacks but I am granted a +4 to armor class.

Defensive martial arts states this goes up to +6, and gives me a +2 when I make grapple, trip, or overrun attacks. It also gives me +2 vs those same attacks.

My friend says I would not get any attacks at all using this feat, just +6 ac and +2 to avoid grapples, overruns, and trips.

which one is officially correct. I plan on making a Khitan scholar that focuses on hand to hand combat.

Thanks for any info.
 

InsomNY

Mongoose
Total defense is total defense. You can't attack if you declare that you are all-out defensive. However, most GMs will say that you may still make attacks of opportunity. Remember that you only receive the DV bonus when using the Total Defense or Fight Defensively combat options.

The +2 bonuses you receive to opposed Str and Dex checks when grappling or throwing are another, separate effect of the feat. They are meaningless if you are executing Total Defense, unless your generous GM is allowing you to use an AoO while turtled up.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
The feat as worded states

+2 to defense when using total defense option

futhermore +2 bonus to opposed Str or Dex checks anytime you make trip, overrun, or grapple attacks

or when you try to avoid grapple, trip, or overrun attacks.

This lets me believe that it breaks the standard rules for total defense option.
It could be another error, but want to be sure.
 

argo

Mongoose
Anonymous said:
The feat as worded states

+2 to defense when using total defense option

futhermore +2 bonus to opposed Str or Dex checks anytime you make trip, overrun, or grapple attacks

or when you try to avoid grapple, trip, or overrun attacks.

This lets me believe that it breaks the standard rules for total defense option.
It could be another error, but want to be sure.

Um, no. :?

You are really overreaching on this one. The text seems prety cleare to me, the feat does two things for you: provides a +2 bonus when thking the total defence action, and provide a +2 bonus when making a trip/overrun/grapple check. Nothing in there comes even remotely close to giving you an attack durring the Total Defence action which normally doesnt' let you make attacks.

I mean, really, theres nothing there to make a case with.
 

GhostWolf69

Mongoose
Yokiboy said:
Um Argo (and bear in mind that I don't have my book with me at work), but if the text really says what I've highlighted in italics, then I definitely think he has a case. "Anytime you make a trip, overrun, or grapple attack or when you try to avoid" the same attacks. That seems like at least a case for an errata? :?:

TTFN,

Yokiboy

I disagree. The Wording is clear, and NOT contradicting.

The two benefits the Feat gives are separate things, ONE is giving a Bonus to DV in Total Defense, the OTHER is giving a +2 anytime you make certain maneuvers. What makes you think the feat grants you the ability to attack while going on Total Defense? Nothing in the feat description even hints at that. It just states that you get two separate benefits from this Feat.

1) If you attack/are attacked (with/by the maneuvers listed) you get +2 to the opposed check involved.
2) You get an extra +2 DV when going on Total Defense.

Again... keep them separated, nothing indicates you can have both at the same time, in the same round, in the same action. i.e. Nothing says you can got on Total Defense AND make an attack. You can however use Total Defense, get a +2 to DV, BE ATTACKED BY a grapple action for instance and if the Grapple Hit (counting your +2 to DV) still get a +2 to the Opposed roll that follows. One benefit is for ONE type of action, the other is for a completely different type of action.

/wolf
 

GhostWolf69

Mongoose
InsomNY said:
However, most GMs will say that you may still make attacks of opportunity.

Most DM's are then making up a hose rule. Since the "official rule" is that you can’t make attacks of opportunity while using total defense.

/wolf
 

Yokiboy

Mongoose
Honestly, I have no issues with this, as I would never allow attacks when performing Total Defense, no matter what!

With Wolfie's coaching I have now understood the text as written. :D

What it says is that you get a DV bonus when performing Total Defense, and +2 on the listed opposed rolls in every circumstance, while attacking or performing the Total Defense action.

TTFN,

Yokiboy
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
I will go with either one or the other, however one last thing.

Benefit: You gain a +2 bonus when using the total defence action, granting you a total of +6 dodge bonus or +6 parry bonus to your DV. Futhermore, you gain a +2 bonus to opposed Strength and Dexterity checks when you make grapple, trip, or overrun attacks, or when you try to avoid trips, overruns, and grapple checks.

Now in my mind Futhermore means in addition to, not one or the other..

If this really meant you gain a +6 bonus to defense instead of +4 or +2 to make grapple, trip, overrun attacks. Why doesn't it just use either or terminology inbetween the +6 defense and when it mentions the +2 to grapple, etc....

You are saying you get one benefit or the other one, not both.

I think that because it is a feat which only 3 races and or a scholar can take, that it overrides the standard rule of total defense. I may be wrong.

My GM thinks it means that you get the +6 to defense and you get the +2 bonus to only resist grapple, trip and overrun attacks.

For all I know it might have been intended to be used with fighting defensively instead of Total Defense. The +2 bonus raising the standard -4 to a -2 and granting +4 to ac instead of +2. I think that would make way more sense than using it with the total defense action.
 

Yokiboy

Mongoose
Anonymous said:
For all I know it might have been intended to be used with fighting defensively instead of Total Defense. The +2 bonus raising the standard -4 to a -2 and granting +4 to ac instead of +2. I think that would make way more sense than using it with the total defense action.

Take this question over to the Rulesmaster thread and you'll get an official answer.

TTFN,

Yokiboy
 

argo

Mongoose
I don't know why we are having such a hard time with this one, this isn't exactly the most poorly written bit of OGL text I've ever seen. Mater of fact its actually one of the most clearly written (and well designed too) feats in the book.

Anonymous said:
Benefit: You gain a +2 bonus when using the total defence action, granting you a total of +6 dodge bonus or +6 parry bonus to your DV. Futhermore, you gain a +2 bonus to opposed Strength and Dexterity checks when you make grapple, trip, or overrun attacks, or when you try to avoid trips, overruns, and grapple checks.

Now in my mind Futhermore means in addition to, not one or the other..
Thats right.

You are saying you get one benefit or the other one, not both.
Not at all, nobody is saying that. You get a +2 to trip/grapple/overrun whenever you make one of those checks, regardless of who started it. Futhermore you get a +2 to DV when taking the total defence action. If someone happens to land a trip attack on you when you are in Total Defence (they hit you DV even with the +6 bonus) then you still get the +2 bonus to resist that trip.

There is no language there that even comes within a mile of suggesting you get to make attacks when in Total Defence

I think that because it is a feat which only 3 races and or a scholar can take, that it overrides the standard rule of total defense. I may be wrong.
Riiiiiiiight.... :roll:

Look, I'm not trying to be glib but the truth is you entire argument is based on a NonSequitur and an Argument From Ignorance. You seem to be on a fishing expedition for someone to support what you want to be true but the simple fact is the feat doesnt' do what you want it to. And, honestly, it is a very powerful feat even without giving you extra attacks. A +2 to trip/grapple/overrun is just about worth a feat in and of itself in my not so humble opinion, the +2 to total defence is just gravy.

The only caveat I would add to this discussion is that should a character have both Defensive Martial Arts and 5 ranks of tumble (likely he will) that the benefits fo both should stack giving a total of +8 to DV when taking the Total Defence action.

Logging out now.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
I did not intend that I should get extra attacks.

when I showed my friend/dm that feat, he said I don't get a +2 to make trip, grapple, or overrun attacks. I only get a +2 to opposed checks if someone decides to do those 3 things to me, and get a +2 to defense

I said I get all 3 benefits. I get +6 to ac and can make either grapple, overrun, or trip attacks at a +2, and if I get tripped, grappled, or overrun I get a bonus of +2 to resist it.


Again I never intended it to read that I would get my normal attacks with the feat, just the 3 mentioned above.
 
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