CSC Grenades

[justacaveman]

So how come the grenades in CSC are so expensive? The prices look like Star Wars prices (Very Unrealistic). The US Military pays about $15 per grenade. In CSC the basic Fragmentation grenade is Cr150, and 1 Credit equals about 2.5 US Dollars! I would make the price the amount for a container of 20 grenades (These are military prices, not Black Market prices.). Characters would probably have to pay prices 5-10 times as much as the military.

Also, how come the Plasma grenades are so weak? They only do 5d6 damage. On page 112 plasma warheads are described as being improved versions of HE warheads, and do 3 x the damage. Do you triple the basic 5d6 Plasma grenade damage? This would make them too powerful. Plus, the cost is only 25% of an HE grenade.

Personally I would make them 8d6/6d6/4d6 like Frag & HE grenades and Cr500). This would make them more powerful without being more powerful than a Pocket Nuke.

Just my .02 credits.

 

[BP]

Is this an improved Frag grenade from Core pg 101 - which only costs Cr 30?

 

[justacaveman]

No, this is the exact same grenade. It just costs 5 times as much as the core book.

 

[Infojunky]

So how come the grenades in CSC are so expensive? The prices look like Star Wars prices (Very Unrealistic). The US Military pays about $15 per grenade.

Take a deep breath....

Now repeat after me....

All the numbers in MGT are arbitrary, They bear no relation to either the real world or each other....

 

[BP]

...All the numbers in MGT are arbitrary, They bear no relation to either the real world or each other....

Actually - that is how real world pricing works, despite what most people think...

In this case it is the 'each other' bit that raises my eyebrows the most

So if I'm buy'n frag grenades I'm using Core rules! (Note I don't have CSC - so I'm just going off what's been posted.)

 

[rust]

So how come the grenades in CSC are so expensive?

These are the luxury ones with the sugar casing with vanilla taste ... 8)

 

[BP]

Sweet :lol:

Seriously - no need to sugar coat it - tell us the truth - we can take it...

 

[justacaveman]

I've done some more research. The US Military now pays about $28 for an M67 Fragmentation hand grenade, and about $60 for a 40mm HEDP grenade (a combo HE and HEAP grenade). So I guess the grenades should come in cases of 10 or 12 rather than 20. I have to say I believe my prices are correct and the CSC prices are not.

Most of the weapon prices seem to be consistant with reality. I think 450 credits for a single RAM HEAP grenade is a bit ridiculous. A Guass rifle (1500 credits) loaded with standard ammo (40 credits for 100 shots) firing a 4 round burst will do almost as much damage to an armoured target. 450 credits for a case of 10 RAM HEAP grenades seems like a much more reasonable price.

 

[rust]

I have to say I believe my prices are correct and the CSC prices are not.

I am not that sure.

Remember, the US military does not buy single grenades, it buys at least
thousands of grenades in bulk, and this could well cause a significant price
difference. The average adventurer who buys a single grenade, or a case
of grenades, will have to pay a lot more per grenade - five times as much
seems high, but not implausible, especially as the adventurer will hardly
buy directly from the factory.

 

[justacaveman]

Yes, but all ammunition has a unit cost for each shot.

Sure the military buys in bulk and the prices in the books should be the cost to the military, not Black Market prices. And the weapon prices are NOT inflated in the same book.

 

[rust]

... the prices in the books should be the cost to the military ...

Why this ? - The average group of adventurers consists of civilians, some
of them with previous military careers, but the group does rarely work for
some military procurement office.

 

[justacaveman]

The grenade prices on page 114 are inconsistent with most of the prices in the book. The Assault Grenade Launcher on page 70 has a 10-round magazine with an ammo cost of 100 credits. That's only 10 credits per grenade.

The price listed in the books should always be the base price of the item (the price that large organizations would pay). Characters would probably pay more than the listed price. How much more would depend on quantity, legality, and other factors.

 

[Baron_Vulk_Morden]

The price listed in the books should always be the base price of the item (the price that large organizations would pay). Characters would probably pay more than the listed price. How much more would depend on quantity, legality, and other factors.

If the Joint Chiefs of Staff played Traveller as a wargame, then sure.

But 99.999% of Traveller players are playing individual civilian PC's, and that's who the game is aimed at.
Civilians.
(And the occasional Mercenary character.)
But not large-unit military organizations.

 

[justacaveman]

If the Joint Chiefs of Staff played Traveller as a wargame, then sure.

But 99.999% of Traveller players are playing individual civilian PC's, and that's who the game is aimed at.
Civilians.
(And the occasional Mercenary character.)
But not large-unit military organizations.

This argument is invalid unlees you are saying that all the prices in the book are inflated by 10 times. Then you would be saying that the base price for a Gauss Rifle should be CR150, an Assault Rifle CR50, an FGMP-14 should be CR 10,000, an Assault Grenade Launcher CR100 (and its ammo CR 1 per shot). Which seems to be a rather large discount.

Does this apply to other books, such as High Guard? By your argument High Guard shoudn't even exist since 99.999% of player characters can't afford to buy large warships. Are the prices in High Guard inflated too? And what about the the book Mercenary? Traveller has always given the GM the ability to create and equip large organizations. Are you saying that the CSC is aimed at players rather than the GM?

Consistancy is the issue. The prices in the book are inconsistant.

 

[Baron_Vulk_Morden]

If "Consistency is the issue", then say that consistency is the issue, not that you feel it is unfair because the Army doesn't have to pay those prices. Don't shift the goalposts during the play.

 

[phavoc]

Ammunition costs, in general, should be calculated based upon 1) buying it on same planet as the manufacturer, 2) quantity, and 3) TL differences.

When buying ammo (or a weapon for that matter), the book prices should reflect base cost as if you were buying it on the same planet where it was manufactured. Higher costs for weapons and ammo can reflect the cost of transporting it the planet you are currently on.

When buying anything in quantity, you get a discount. How much depends on the cost of the item, and how much your GM wants to gouge you, err, I mean how much of a discount they think you should get. Buying a case of grenades doesn't do much for a discount. Buying 10,000 would get you a big one. Buying 10 HMG's won't get you much, but buy 50 and you might get say 5%. So take into account what the item is and the relative quantity for the item.

Tech level should greatly affect the cost of an item. If you are on a TL7 planet and trying to buy ammo for your TL8 gear, you should pay a premium. And if you are on a TL12 planet and buying TL10 gear, you should get a discount. But all within reason. You might have to specifically commission a batch of 150,000 HMG rounds from a local manufactuer on a TL14 world since nobody on the TL14 planet would ever use such backwards stuff. So it might cost you the same, you might get a discount, or you might pay a premium.

But all of these are just guidelines. It's how you want to run your Traveller setting that really affects pricing. Maybe your GM wants to keep you poor, or maybe he's Monty Haul. Just find a method that you like and works for you and go from there.

I do agree with justacaveman about the pricing in the reference books. It is nice to have a common reference point that makes common sense from the start. A single grenade costing 500cr at the TL it is made does seem a bit ridiculous to me. I like to use the books as the baseline and go from there.

 

[Dave Chase]

Shipping cost (from planet to planet), quantity discounts, who the manufactor is, and who the seller is.

All of these will make the cost different.

But I do understand the frustration of being the GM and having 2 different source materials telling you 2+ different costs of the same item with out any explanation.

Dave Chase

 

[BP]

Just a RW note - in a competitive market, price is often what people are expecting/willing to pay - irrespective of shipping (i.e. profit covers shipping - but may be less in one place versus another). Volume, competition, market and profit expectations override trivials like manufacturing and distribution costs.

If one orders items (like online) the price may be the same, but shipping is generally extra and generally varies by location.

 

[justacaveman]

I know it's asking for a lot, but what I want from an equipment book is clear, consistant rules, and reasonable prices.

I don't need an equipment book telling me that player characters should be charged outrageous prices in order to limit their access to certain items. As GM, that's my job. I decide how much to gouge (er.. I mean charge.) the characters.

Here in the US you could have some difficulty buying military weapons and equipment. But in many places in the world such things are easily obtained. You can often buy them for less than the military pays for them. Used AK-47's generally cost less than $100, and grenades are $10. Books shouldn't make decisions for GM's, they are supposed to be reference material to make the GM's job easier.

 

[rust]

I know it's asking for a lot, but what I want from an equipment book is clear, consistant rules, and reasonable prices.

I agree, although for me the prices are not a very important part of such
a book, because I distrust the economic system of Traveller and prefer to
design one that fits my setting better.

However, you are of course right that consistent prices make things much
easier, especially where it is somewhat difficult to research the real world
equivalents. So, the price problem for the grenades does not disturb me,
but I admit that it does not increase my trust in the prices of, for exam-
ple, artillery pieces, which I would find hard to compare to real world pri-
ces that are not easy to research.