Crit Repair - Discussion

[Hash]

Normally when a ship receives a critical you cannot attempt a repair roll for that critical effect in the same turn as it is received. I find this unnecessarily complicated for the purposes of record keeping, especially with larger ships that can sustain multiple criticals or larger battles where a firing turn can last a long time (and hence harder to remember whether the crit was sustained this turn or a previous one).

My question is why not allow an attempt to be made on crits in the same turn? No need for new rules - just cut an existing one and save on that record keeping!


(Note: I realise the ancients auto-repair crits the turn after which may complicate that but I'm deliberatly putting that to the side for now it terms of overall game balance because they really don't feature in the game often enough to warrant undue consideration).

 

[Reaverman]

You mean similar to the method for repairing crits, used in VAS?

 

[emperorpenguin]

Normally when a ship receives a critical you cannot attempt a repair roll for that critical effect in the same turn as it is received. I find this unnecessarily complicated for the purposes of record keeping, especially with larger ships that can sustain multiple criticals or larger battles where a firing turn can last a long time (and hence harder to remember whether the crit was sustained this turn or a previous one).

My question is why not allow an attempt to be made on crits in the same turn? No need for new rules - just cut an existing one and save on that record keeping!

I agree, I find it very annoying having to track which crits happened when. We did actually playtest this for 2nd ed and I was very much in favour but it got removed, don't know why

 

[Iain McGhee]

It's not that hard to keep track of. I just put a mark on the record sheet beside each Critical after I roll for repairs. Obviously any Critical unmarked at the time I'm rolling for repairs must have occcured that turn and are not elegible for repair. Vital crits I mark differently.

 

[katadder]

exactly, not complicated at all. you dont need to remember which crits happened when. just which ones happened that turn which you cant repair. any crits that didnt happen that turn you can attempt to repair.

 

[Target]

We altered the All Hands to Deck SA so it could repair crits the turn you got them as well. It seems to work well.
The biggest problem about recording what turn you got crits is remembering to move the turn counter on at the end of the turn. As the games get more exciting you start to forget.

 

[H]

Normally when a ship receives a critical you cannot attempt a repair roll for that critical effect in the same turn as it is received. I find this unnecessarily complicated for the purposes of record keeping, especially with larger ships that can sustain multiple criticals or larger battles where a firing turn can last a long time (and hence harder to remember whether the crit was sustained this turn or a previous one).

My question is why not allow an attempt to be made on crits in the same turn? No need for new rules - just cut an existing one and save on that record keeping!

I agree, I find it very annoying having to track which crits happened when. We did actually playtest this for 2nd ed and I was very much in favour but it got removed, don't know why

yup, would be nice, of course the flipside is that you crit that sharlin for a nowweapons fire, m'wah... but it already fired this round, took out your bintak, and gets repaired immediatly, how pished would you be ;-) in principle though makes sense, see if you can get it back in!

 

[Hash]

It's not that's it's hard to keep track of in small games (I think its more annoying in the larger games as I said) but...why should I? Plus, I know its a small thing but, it's more unnecessary record keeping in IMO and doesn't really add anything to the game.

If 2nd edition does add new traits rules etc, it should also be looking to (and I'm sure you play testers have been ) streamline existing rules to make 'em work more smoothly and ensure ACTA doesn't get too complicated by a 1001 minor tweaks and additions.

Sorry to hear your campaign to get it down to same turn got shouted down EP , I agree with Hiff, you were bang on the money first time round and should bring it up again dude!

 

[H]

would a poll with a ton of player support help EP?? (well, about 4 players support it here, but maybe more!

 

[emperorpenguin]

I like streamlining rules, I think I'm in the minority who can't really see the point in both damage and crew tracks

 

[katadder]

same turn repairs makes things too easy, and if all the younger races can do it then the ancients would have to get it too.
remembering that a crit wasnt caused that turn isnt all too hard.

 

[Target]

I like streamlining rules, I think I'm in the minority who can't really see the point in both damage and crew tracks

With you there, thats why we house ruled them out, not hard since we had already changed the crit chart.
Makes Chronos & Havens better too but still don't use Havens.

 

[JayRaider]

My question is why not allow an attempt to be made on crits in the same turn? No need for new rules - just cut an existing one and save on that record keeping!

I'm happy with the rules as they are currently on this issue.

I think allowing Damage to be repaired in the same turn could give the ISA/Vree a bigger advantage cause of their higher CQ.

 

[emperorpenguin]

I'm happy with the rules as they are currently on this issue.

I think allowing Damage to be repaired in the same turn could give the ISA/Vree a bigger advantage cause of their higher CQ.

It would be no more an advantage than they currently have! :wink:

 

[CZuschlag]

No, JayRaider is right on the comparison --- if you have an advantage, the more often you get to use it (the improved CQ), the better off you get.

Sports analogy: A great big man down low on the block is an advantage. The number of times you give him the basketball down there defines how great of an advantage he can be. Sure, if you repeal the 3-second violation, everyone will feel the impact of the change, but who is better off -- the team with the guards or the team with the center?

No, I think what it impacts is those races that Generate criticals, but never sustain them --- the Vorlons and the Shadows. That's the balance component , if any, we should be considering.

 

[emperorpenguin]

No, JayRaider is right on the comparison --- if you have an advantage, the more often you get to use it (the improved CQ), the better off you get. .

but they wouldn't be getting to use it more, just one turn earlier. There would be no more advantage than they already have!

 

[CZuschlag]

He's still right --- starting the Markov chain earlier (statistical term) still assists those with higher probability success rates. For a specific example, consider the probability of a critical delivered on Turn 1 persisting through turn Tn:

Old
.................T1........T2......T3
ISA/Vree...1.00....0.50....0.25
Other........1.00....0.66....0.44
Relative
Success
Rate...........1.......0.76.....0.57
(Rates are Vree/Other, so low numbers favor the Vree and ISA)


New
.................T1........T2......T3
ISA/Vree...0.50....0.25....0.13
Other........0.66....0.44....0.30
Relative
Success
Rate.........0.76.....0.57....0.43

For every turn Tn, the Relative Rate of Tn(New)< Relative Rate of Tn(Old).

Basic statistics. Hey, no biggie -- most of my job is based on this kind of stuff!

 

[Burger]

I agree, keeping track of which crits occurred this turn and which last, can be confusing in large battles.

I've just added some boxes to my ship viewer's sheets for this specific purpose, in fact. But I'd prefer if crits could be repaired straight away, also because they are pretty hard to repair currently (5 or 6), so an extra try would be useful.

 

[Na-Po]

For every turn Tn, the Relative Rate of Tn(New)< Relative Rate of Tn(Old).

What you've shown is only a one turn shift, Tn (new) = T (n+1) (old)
meaning that if they can repair I can also, and I won't be more (or less) difficult than usual. (and still have the same number of crits to repair).

BUT there is still something that changes :
if you suffer a "No repair" crit then all your T(n-x) unrepaired crits (x>=1)
won't be repaired and all your T(n-1) crits never had a chance to be repaired.
With "new" you can try to repair them at the n-1 end of turn which allows a small chance to repair before the "no repair" crit.

That's in favor of Vree/ISA as we state you only have one throw to repair a crit before the "no repair" happens.

 

[Johnny D]

On the subject of crit repairs what about having the number of repair roles you're allowed to make be based upon your crew rating. ie every 10 or 20 crew rounding down that a ship currently possesses allows it to try and make a repair roll. As criticals are a big weakness for larger ships esp Armageddon type ones. This goes some ways to mitigating the effects, and has a realistic feel as ships of that size should have the capacity to attempt multiple repairs at the smae time.
Gives more meaning to crew rating also and is very little extra book keeping.