Corruption

[BhilJhoanz]

Maybe I've missed something:

"Any time a character comes into contact with a demon, evil god, or an unusually powerful and corrupt sorcerer (except in the context of actively attacking them, or fleeing from them in terror), he must make a corruption save."

This is the only rule in the book regarding corruption loss and Demonic Pact is the only place in the book that requires a Corruption save.

Even the demons listed do not have any information about their Corruption DC.

I'm at a loss for guidelines for adjudicating corruption saves other than my own sense (which will naturally conflict with player desires).

First -- have I missed anything that gives more specific info about conditions that require corruption saves?

What constitutes an "unusually powerful and corrupt sorcerer"?

What should the Save DCs be for hanging out with them?

What about actions? What's considered a corruptible action? Is killing a mother while she nurses her baby worthy of a corruption save? or is corruption more akin to the taint of the supernatural?

Any thoughts would be welcome . . .

 

[Iron_Chef]

This is worded very strangely in the book, but I take it to mean anytime you choose to peacefully interact with or aid (passively or not), a Corrupt creature, you yourself may become Corrupt. That's what these creatures do, whenever they aren't actively engaged otherwise. They corrupt everyone and everything around them with the taint of evil, as embodied by apathy, despair, desperation, greed, hatred, jealousy, lust, insanity, perversion, and/or sadism.

An unusually powerful and corrupt sorcerer is a sorcerer with a Corruption score of 7+; all undead and demons have Corruption 10+ (see Corruption rules in GM section).

So anything other than fighting or fleeing from truly Corrupt creatures (7+) provokes a Corruption save. This includes any attempt at bargaining with or questioning them, as it gives the Corruptor a chance to corrupt the target(s). Avoiding/ignoring or merely getting out of the way of such creatures would most likely *not* provoke Corruption saves (such as standing to watch an evil sorcerer's litter march past on a busy street).

Corruption saves are set by the Corrupt creature's magic attack roll; they roll 1d10 + Magic Attack Bonus to determine the victim's Will save; if the creature currently has a Corruption score of 1 or more, they apply that as a penalty to their Corruption save.

 

[Fearguis]

Not to drag yet another book into this, but you may want to consult the D20 Call of Cthulhu game for some guidance in this matter. They discuss insanity (which is similar to corruption) in great detail. I'm also utilizing their magic section until the Scrolls of Skelos is released...

 

[Iron_Chef]

d20 Cthulhu is a great book with a great magic system that fits well with Conan but needs some tweaking. I have a thread on converting this here:
http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1387

Back to the subject of Corruptible actions, I would say anytime a character violates his code of honor warrants a Corruption save, with a DC set by the GM as 1d20 + a modifier in line with the severity of the violation... oathbreaking and murder being two very different things (depending on the situation). A multiple violation by the same stroke should provoke a heftier modifier, perhaps even bordering on the impossible.

Breaking faith with one's religion, and specifically by breaking an oath sworn in the character's god's name, should force a Corruption save. Also, the god should curse them (as Greater Ill Fortune) for a year (see Conan The Invincible for an example of this---Poor Karela!).

Anytime a character willingly performs an act that qualifies as one of the "seven deadly sins" might also qualify, depending on severity. Basically, if the PC seeks out his own pleasure over the well-being of others and such act leads to horrible consequences for the people who get hurt, I'd say that begs for a Corruption save. That said, Hyboria is not a very forgiving or compassionate setting and many such acts that would shock us today are everyday deeds there that no one thinks twice about.

 

[Yuan-Ti]

Anytime a character willingly performs an act that qualifies as one of the "seven deadly sins" might also qualify, depending on severity. Basically, if the PC seeks out his own pleasure over the well-being of others and such act leads to horrible consequences for the people who get hurt, I'd say that begs for a Corruption save. That said, Hyboria is not a very forgiving or compassionate setting and many such acts that would shock us today are everyday deeds there that no one thinks twice about.

I wonder, does enslavement qualify? Should characters who enslave others, trade in slaves, or otherwise assist slavers make corruption saves? Or is this common enough in Hyboria that is should not be considered a sin?

 

[InsomNY]

Corruption appears to be included in this game largely as a control on sorcery, and to remind us that our minds and souls are at stake when we consort with demons. Issuing Corruption for just being a bastard doesn't sit right with me.

My feeling on Corruption is that it should be reserved for really heinous "normal" behavior, and even then I'm not sure. Consciously subverting an enlightened and benevolent government (if such can even exist in this setting) might qualify, as might hunting down and slaughtering the women and children refugees from a war in which you have no personal stake.

One can be corrupt without actually having much Corruption. If players are decadent and corrupt, make sure NPCs treat them accordingly.

 

[Iron_Chef]

Anytime a character willingly performs an act that qualifies as one of the "seven deadly sins" might also qualify, depending on severity. Basically, if the PC seeks out his own pleasure over the well-being of others and such act leads to horrible consequences for the people who get hurt, I'd say that begs for a Corruption save. That said, Hyboria is not a very forgiving or compassionate setting and many such acts that would shock us today are everyday deeds there that no one thinks twice about.

I wonder, does enslavement qualify? Should characters who enslave others, trade in slaves, or otherwise assist slavers make corruption saves? Or is this common enough in Hyboria that is should not be considered a sin?

I don't think enslavement in and of itself qualifies as a corruptible offense. Conan himself, while he hates slavers, does not care much one or the other about slaves. Freedom is for the strong, and let the weak serve the strong if they are content to be sheep. Conan only frees slaves (and usually only hot chicks or macho guys like himself who earn his respect) when he makes a strong personal connection with them and they are helping him out with whatever adventure he's on.

 

[BhilJhoanz]

Thanks Iron Chef for the direction about Corruption DCs! That helps with that . . .

CoC is a favorite of ours -- I would like to see insanity (outside of or superceding the sorcery insanity rules) play a role in our campaigns.

It seems that several of you believe that corruption can or should come from mundane, evil acts such as murder. I'm not convinced. What if you have no code of honor? What if you're Zamoran Thief with no code of honor?

Let's use the example of murdering a mother while she's nursing her infant so that you can use the infant in a ritual sacrifice. (can you think of anything more vile?)

If you have a code, then something like this would certainly make you lose your code but once lost why would you become "corrupt" -- it's clearly in your nature to undertake such actions.

I'd propose that corruption only comes from supernatural sources -- demons, other corrupt people, objects, places, spells.

Corruption should reflect the taint of dealing in the profane. And yes, it SHOULD be a balance against the power of Sorcery -- unfortunately, except for dealing with demons and vile sorcerers, there's no other source for corruption. The summoning style offers some, but why not Curses or Necromancy?

I'd be interested to see Ian's thoughts on this . . .

 

[Yuan-Ti]

It seems that several of you believe that corruption can or should come from mundane, evil acts such as murder. I'm not convinced. What if you have no code of honor? What if you're Zamoran Thief with no code of honor?

I agree with you. I asked about enslavement because I wanted Iron Chef to clarify what he meant by "seven deadly sins" calling for corruption saves. I think for mundane crimes, as you say, there should be no corruption saves, in general.

However, because human sacrifice clearly ought to require a corruption save, if a character kills in the name of his demon god, for example, there ought to be corruption involved. Likewise, if a Scholar uses mesmerism to incapacitate an enemy guard, then kill him for the PP bonus -- "Please make a corruption save."

Some of you may balk at this, saying PCs have to be able to do this and, after all, the enemy was an enemy, and Conan was never bothered by killing enemies. I think it's clear in Howard's stories, however, that the sorcerors who did these things were considered corrupt by Conan (not to mention Howard). I bring this up because so many here have talked about this act in such an offhand manner. (See the thread on the Defensive Blast... "But a PC scholar can simply hypnotize a guard, kill him for the PP and cause an additional Xd6 damage.")

Any thoughts?

 

[Iron_Chef]

It seems that several of you believe that corruption can or should come from mundane, evil acts such as murder. I'm not convinced. What if you have no code of honor? What if you're Zamoran Thief with no code of honor?

I agree with you. I asked about enslavement because I wanted Iron Chef to clarify what he meant by "seven deadly sins" calling for corruption saves. I think for mundane crimes, as you say, there should be no corruption saves, in general.

However, because human sacrifice clearly ought to require a corruption save, if a character kills in the name of his demon god, for example, there ought to be corruption involved. Likewise, if a Scholar uses mesmerism to incapacitate an enemy guard, then kill him for the PP bonus -- "Please make a corruption save."

Some of you may balk at this, saying PCs have to be able to do this and, after all, the enemy was an enemy, and Conan was never bothered by killing enemies. I think it's clear in Howard's stories, however, that the sorcerors who did these things were considered corrupt by Conan (not to mention Howard). I bring this up because so many here have talked about this act in such an offhand manner. (See the thread on the Defensive Blast... "But a PC scholar can simply hypnotize a guard, kill him for the PP and cause an additional Xd6 damage.")

Any thoughts?

I'm of a mind to alter my initial opinion in favor of yours. There is a big difference between most of the average bastards of Conan's world and the soul-sucking alien horrors of the Outer Dark. Namely, an agenda that includes something other than immediate self-gratification, wanton murder and mischief. Even the worst maniac is still limited by human constraints... demons are not and have millennia to perfect and pursue their goals, transcending any evil man might do.

 

[Ian Sturrock]

Corruption should reflect the taint of dealing in the profane. And yes, it SHOULD be a balance against the power of Sorcery -- unfortunately, except for dealing with demons and vile sorcerers, there's no other source for corruption. The summoning style offers some, but why not Curses or Necromancy?

I'd be interested to see Ian's thoughts on this . . .

I originally intended Corruption to be a serious risk only to the most reprehensible of sorcerers, which is why it tends to only happen when characters either deliberately consort with genuine evil, or are corrupted by some other contact with said evil. Of course, if you want a game with stricter dividing lines between good and evil sorcery, you're at liberty to extend the system so curses and necromancy also cause Corruption, but I'm not sure it's necessary. If you want real power, you still have to play with demons.