Core Expeditions on Traveller map

[Anstett]

... Every GM who built their own version over the years just got told their work is fanfiction now.....

Because it is, every My Own Universe is fanfiction.

That is what we do from the moment players start to interact with a setting. We are all doing some form of Cooperative Storytelling or fanfic of a published work and making it our own.

 

[Bense]

Other than that’s the way it’s alway been give me one logical common sense reason for keeping Foreven a Referee Preserve?

Because it's right next to the Spinward Marches, the sector with the most published material. Referees can make use of a wealth of Spinward Marches material, then have their players duck next door to entirely original material with minimal fuss. They can even alternate between the two. Have an adventure in Foreven, then back across the border for one in the Marches, then back to Foreven again, etc.

 

[tytalan]

The whole point of a blank sector is that it's yours. The moment Mongoose publishes an official Foreven it stops being a canvas and becomes someone else's painting. Every GM who built their own version over the years just got told their work is fanfiction now.

And yeah, nobody's forcing you to use it. But players read things. They turn up at your table having absorbed the official version and suddenly you're arguing against a book instead of just running your game.

False argument since 90% of players don’t buy sector books these are essentially a GMs tool. This is just more of “It always been this way argument “ it has no real relevance. Truthfully what you’re saying is GM have no control over their game they have to keep things the way mongoose writes them. You can’t do anything to any world or system that’s been published by mongoose so you advocate hand stringing other GMs because you have no control over your game setting. By your logic if some mongoose book said Mora is made of green cheese then no matter what you want as a GM Mora is now made of Green Cheese. It’s a false argument that you make because their really no logical argument that you can make

 

[tytalan]

Yes possibly. You could say the same of Switzerland represented in WWII maps: No war in the middle of a war zone.

You need to read your history more went on it Switzerland during WW II than you think. It was a hot bed of intelligence, smuggling and a bunch of other activities that directly influenced the war. There was also more combat in Switzerland than you think, no one invaded but small unit actions did happen. Just because Switzerland didn’t choose a side didn’t mean nothing happened there.

 

[tytalan]

Because it's right next to the Spinward Marches, the sector with the most published material. Referees can make use of a wealth of Spinward Marches material, then have their players duck next door to entirely original material with minimal fuss. They can even alternate between the two. Have an adventure in Foreven, then back across the border for one in the Marches, then back to Foreven again, etc.

Again the ideal that just because a book has been published doesn’t mean you have to use it.

 

[Bense]

False argument since 90% of players don’t buy sector books these are essentially a GMs tool. This is just more of “It always been this way argument “ it has no real relevance. Truthfully what you’re saying is GM have no control over their game they have to keep things the way mongoose writes them. You can’t do anything to any world or system that’s been published by mongoose so you advocate hand stringing other GMs because you have no control over your game setting. By your logic if some mongoose book said Mora is made of green cheese then no matter what you want as a GM Mora is now made of Green Cheese. It’s a false argument that you make because their really no logical argument that you can make

Are you arguing that there should be no Referee's preserves at all?

 

[Condottiere]

Wieners spin history.

Viennese, that is.

 

[CordwainerFish]

Are you arguing that there should be no Referee's preserves at all?

As far as I can tell, the only effect setting Foreven aside has had has been to cause the Zhodani Consulate to go criminally underutilized.

Preserves only serve that mythical animal, the referee who makes their own setting.

 

[Terry Mixon]

As far as I can tell, the only effect setting Foreven aside has had has been to cause the Zhodani Consulate to go criminally underutilized.

Preserves only serve that mythical animal, the referee who makes their own setting.

I agree with this. It’s too central and is more of an impediment to the majority of GMs. The few that make use of their own area are too far and few between in my mind.

 

[tytalan]

Are you arguing that there should be no Referee's preserves at all?

I’m arguing that it’s an outdated concept but if we must have one don’t place it in the middle of 80% of actual published material. I’m also arguing that the concept that if mongoose publishes something GMs have to use it is a fallacy.

 

[rinku]

I think there is probably a middle ground.

The sector can be left as officially blank, never directly referenced by any Mongoose product... except by sector books published as examples. Which very explicitly label themselves as alternates.

Get several authors with different good ideas (or good bad ones) and publish a line of many Foreven sectors. Takes advantage of Mongoose professional publishing standards, allows for interesting and nearby developments that can be ignored outside of the area (except inasmuch as they affect people's active campaigns), and most importantly reinforces the YTU concept and avoids making Foreven any one thing. While giving people without the time to build their own sector something they can buy.

 

[Bense]

I’m arguing that it’s an outdated concept but if we must have one don’t place it in the middle of 80% of actual published material. I’m also arguing that the concept that if mongoose publishes something GMs have to use it is a fallacy.

Well I find it a useful one. Perhaps I am outdated.

I don't think anyone is arguing that if Mongoose publishes it everyone has to use it. Referees like to use published material because more of the work is already done before they make their own additions. Mongoose has quite sensibly published UWPs for all of their sector books, but only written descriptions for 2-3 worlds in each subsector. Having a referee's preserve right next to their most popular sector is an extension of that wise policy - allowing Referees to drop stuff of their own right next to stuff they don't have to work as hard on.

 

[rinku]

The danger is that if Mongoose does publish *one* Foreven sector, even if they clearly mark it as non-canon, it's going to be used a defacto canon.

Now look at that. I had to use the "C" word...

 

[tytalan]

I don't think anyone is arguing that if Mongoose publishes it everyone has to use it. Referees like to use published material because more of the work is already done before they make their own additions.

The literal argument is if it’s published the players will read it and the GMs will be forced to use the published version this has been stated above and on other forums threads.

You just said it Referees like published sectors because the massive amount of work needed to develop a decent sector so why are those of us who want this being held hostage to the few that fight it. Mongoose should publish it and those that don’t want to use it don’t have to buy it. It’s a simple concept

 

[tytalan]

The danger is that if Mongoose does publish *one* Foreven sector, even if they clearly mark it as non-canon, it's going to be used a defacto canon.

Now look at that. I had to use the "C" word...

What does it matter Traveller has no official canon and even if they do this is a RPG every GMs setting is different from any sort of canon. This is just another way of saying if mongoose published it you would have to use it and that’s just BS.

 

[rinku]

It must be nice to have players that won't go there.

 

[tytalan]

It must be nice to have players that won't go there.

If your players go there just tell them you’re using your version. That what it means to be a GM you decide what is in your game and what is not, you’re in charge of the setting the players are in charge of their characters. You tell your part of the story and they tell theirs that how corroborating works.

 

[MonsterX]

You kinda hafta tell the players that the published data - whether Mongoose, Travellermap/wiki or elsewhere - is unreliable, incomplete, and sometimes downright wrong. They may have better information themselves (this kind of thing is what knowledge skill rolls are for), or not. The PCs can, do and should still read up when going new places - its (usually) better than knowing nothing - but expect surprises. Even if their info was correct when they got it, it might not be any more.

In a big universe with slow communication it is normal to have old, bad information about other places. Also, these places are really big: whole solar systems and planets with billions of people, so there is a lot more going on than the two paragraph planet blurb can encompass. LOTS of space to tell any kind of story you want really.

So using published data still allows the referee - indeed really requires the referee - to make it their own in order to bring it alive. Interpreting and filling out what is already there is enough work for me, and probably for most referees. And if PCs go somewhere unexpected, it is nice to have at least some minimal amount of data on it to improvise off of, until you get a chance to prep.

For this reason, it would be nice to have at minimum Travellermap/wiki data on Foreven, or even better an actual Mongoose book. Of course, we can just steal someone else's Foreven, but it is nicer if it is all there on Travellermap as this is what the players look at.

 

[rinku]

I mean, it would sort of be nice if Traveller Map didn't spoil Egryn subsector for Leviathan too. Maybe "areas to be explored" could have spoiler covers on them?

And... Foreven does have a certain amount of Minimum information; major political boundaries are marked, as are system locations (which is what reminded me of the Leviathan maps...).

But I do take the point.

 

[Sigtrygg]

I am afraid that the scenario as presented in Leviathan has not passed the sniff test for years.

The Spinward Marches as a distant frontier of a decaying empire where dissent was rife and the worlds across the border unexplored you could make a case for having a few unknown subsectors to explore.

A Spinward Marches that is no longer the true frontier and has been explored and settled for over a thousand years makes unknown worlds just across the border preposterous. This is not Mongoose;s doing, this was GDW changing the setting.