Complete Re-fit question

[angelus2000]

Reading through SFOS again last night and the Complete Re-fits under the Campaign tables caught my eye. It says you can upgrade a ship to another variant by taking it out of play for 2 turns. A lot of times though the new Variant is higher or lower in PL than the model you sent back to the shipyards. Hyperions, Sunhawks, G'Quans all have at least 3 other variants, to give an example.

My question is this, if you upgrade a Raid PL ship to a Battle PL capability, can you still take it as if were a Raid PL during a campaign?

I'm sure the answers already no, but what exactly is this? I mean you already managed to get a fairly good roll on the re-fits table and had to do without that ship for 2 turns. I'd never take a Command Hyperion at initial campaign setup. If I could get a chance to bump up a Standard Hyp to Command and still use the original Raid PL for fleet selections I'd do it an a heartbeat. But if you would have to use it as a Battle PL, whats the fraggin point in re-fitting it in the first place?

Personally, I'd like to see the Complete Re-Fit option errated so the original PL of the ship that got re-fitted is kept for fleet selection purposes during the campaign. I think a lot of those variants that would never see the light of day otherwise would get used a lot more

 

[H]

It would actually make the g'quonth and g'tal worth taking, amongst others, but I very much doubt it would ever happen, but it would be cool

 

[Lord David the Denied]

What complete refit option? As far as I'm aware, only the Narn get such a result on their refit table...

 

[H]

I certainly don't recall it on other races, it's a curse i tells ya, a curse, I had to refit a rothan into a damned rongoth, ggrrrrrr

 

[G´berg]

Well if you can´t play it at its original PL that refit it´s really a curse.

 

[Locutus9956]

Well to be honest Id say a resounding no to that idea. Sure it might be fun but the refits table is there to add a bit of spice to the campaign not set up completely broken fleets. You already ARE getting a War level ship effectively for the cost of a battle level ship in your campaign fleet but if you could still count it as a Battle level in individual battles then how in Valens name is that even remotely fair?!

The important thing to remember is that the campaign rules are designed first and foremost as a game and only secondly as anything resembling a realistic strategy simulation. The PL system is already starting to bend under the strain of the number of ships in most fleets now without trying to push in War level choices for half price etc etc.

 

[Slightly Norse John]

No other race gets it, and it's not random. The controlling player gets to pick which. It is a completely different ship you get back, at a different PL, to all intents and purposes.
A lot of the refits are of marginal or questionable value, or cost something to gain something. (Lose slow loading; half AD. Whoop-de-fracking-doo.) This just happens to be one of them- often, you're trading a ship you can afford to deploy for one you can't.
Depends on the fleet, but I usually find Other Duties of more actual value, that, then XP and CQ raising, and then refits, in order of priority.

 

[angelus2000]

If its a Narn-only refit option then I withdraw the original question. I happened to be reading their refit table at the time the question popped into my head and didnt bother checking to see if the other races got the same option.

But hypothetically if ALL races had the same option for a complete refit, would it then be a fair option? I realize some races have more refit options than others, but to be fair a lot of the variants are generally regarded as being too weak to justify bumping them up in PL, Command Omegas being an example there was a thread about a few weeks ago.

 

[Lord David the Denied]

If the Command Omega and Command Hyperion didn't go up a level you'd get the extra AD (on most if not all weapons) and the command trait for free. Making the standard version of the ship worthless.

Now, if a total refit was something you could do at will, like sending a ship home to high command for complete repair, it might be more use. As it is with the Narn table result, you have to do it. You have a a ship with half a dozen refits, ace crew and everything just how you want it, then roll for a new refit... it's gone. A command G'Quan that's not worth using any more.

If you could pay some RR, wait two turns and get a variant ship back it'd be worth using. Send a Centurion away after a few battles to be rebuilt into a Prefect when you realise the Centurion can't stand up to the heavy action it's seen. Or send a Balvarin home to be upgraded to a Balvarix after a few missions.

Anyone have any thoughts, or am I just insane?

 

[H]

your centauri twisted (in)sanity aside, it would be nice to be able to do it. I don't wanna buy a T'Rann in my campaign, but I actually realised i need one, and having little use for a T'Loth, this would have been a useful option.

 

[Slightly Norse John]

There would be tactical counterbalances (quick, half his fleet is away for refit, let's get him) but it could be a way of getting something for not much in the way of price.
For ships whose variants are at the same PL, it's fairer, if anything it would work as a tactical crutch by retrieving bad fleet selections made at the start of the game. That Magnus doesn't throw enough AD to do the job? Send it home, get an Elutarian back. Secundus' guns not biting? Trade it in for a Tertius. This could be abused and exploited, and I'm not sure that players ought to be insulated from their mistakes.
The book solution at the moment is 'buy a new ship'.
The refit tables include a lot of similar options, but they are optimised to the race, in some cases as campaign balancing factors. The Centauri get poor weapon upgrades- the common extended range, but additional dice available to the twin array only, basically so other races can catch them up in kaboom. The Narn get this radical an option as one of their balancing factors.

 

[Chernobyl]

If you are getting a differnet ship at a different PL, you use the new PL as fas as I'm concerned.

Chern