Civilian Ship Problem,Torp hit suggestions, Speed penalties

[Shark]

Iniative.
Sides with civilian ships get a iniative penalty. This in effect means nothing as the civ ships can move first and as there are so many of them (eg convoy scenario) the civ ship player can always move his ships last. in effect even if he loses iniative he has the iniative in the movement phase.

I suggest that ALL civilian ships move Before all any combat ships are moved.

Tramp Freighter size.
At 6+ size this ship is way too hard to hit. As there is no bonus to hit slow targets. They are as hard to hit as DDs which are smaller,faster and more manouverable.

This is especialy a problem with torps. With the limited reloads and no modifiers except for flank hit, it is way too hard to hit them.

I suggest :
Change size to 5+

Let subs split their fire between targets like AA fire can.

Give an attack bonus of +1 if range under 10 as in new Tornement Rules for torps and guns.

Give an additional +1 if target speed is under 3 for torps and guns.

Give an additional +1 if target has not gone EVASIVE and has turned at a rate of one or less for torps only.

This will make civilian ships and those with speed and engine Rudder damage More vunerable.

Make all speed critical hits cumulative.That is 2 turbine and one prop damage woulds reduce speed by 1+1+2=4 Not 2 as it is now.

Comments?

Cheers
Shark

 

[Lord David the Denied]

Knowing as little as I do about the game, these sound like sensible ideas. Civvie ships would be like sitting ducks to Navy gunnery crews - dead meat and scrap metal.

 

[Soulmage]

Problem with those changes is they make torpoedoes WAAAAY too powerful. Torps are already some of the nastiest weapons in the game.

The cumulative engine damage rule would quickly turn the game into an immobile slugfest.

 

[Shark]

Problem with those changes is they make torpoedoes WAAAAY too powerful. Torps are already some of the nastiest weapons in the game.

The cumulative engine damage rule would quickly turn the game into an immobile slugfest.

The mods apply to non manouvering slow targets. They should be dead meat for torpedoes.

As for the cumulative criticals on turbines and props it could be toned down a bit by allowing different critical engine categories to stack. Leaving multiples of the same crit to just come into effect when the other is repaired.
The worst case then would be if prop ,turbine and fuel were hit speed would be reduced by 6. I dont think it too bad for 3 different crits to equal one engine disabled crit.
Cheers

 

[Hugbiel]

The mods apply to non manouvering slow targets. They should be dead meat for torpedoes.

For having playing to ace of the deep i don't agree with this one. Torpedo are difficult to use and a single torpedo shouldn't be efficient unless fired in contact.

 

[Shark]

The mods apply to non manouvering slow targets. They should be dead meat for torpedoes.

For having playing to ace of the deep i don't agree with this one. Torpedo are difficult to use and a single torpedo shouldn't be efficient unless fired in contact.

Hi,
Spliting the attack dice up means a min of 2 torps per attack die.
EG the US Gato has 6bow and 4 stern tubes.In VAS it has 3 Att.die Bow and one Stern.
Anyone know why VAS doesnt give the Gato 2 att die for the stern tubes?

I dont think a skipper would put more than 2 fish into a merchie.

Cheers

 

[Shadow4ce]

Depending on the nation, a "dead in water" freighter would be meat with one torpedo for most. While all nation's torpedoes would be on target to hit pretty easy, with pre-'43 US torps, it might take 4 to finally get 1 to explode at the target. The first would be a dud, :evil: the next would explode before getting near enough, the third would detonate beyond because it ran too deep and passed under her! :shock: :? :roll: :evil:

EG the US Gato has 6bow and 4 stern tubes.In VAS it has 3 Att.die Bow and one Stern.
Anyone know why VAS doesnt give the Gato 2 att die for the stern tubes?

Very good question. I wish to know the answer to this as well.

 

[Wishbone]

I always kinda assumed 6+ was a typo when considering the ships were dead slow and unmanouverable. trampships have always been 4+ meat on my table...

 

[MektonZero]

I dont think a skipper would put more than 2 fish into a merchie.

Cheers

That depends on the time and place. US skippers from mid to late war had a problem, there was a pretty large pile of escorts for an ever shrinking pool of Japanese merchants. Seeing 3-4 escorts in convoy with 2-3 small merchants didn't encourage skippers to get really close. So they hung back and fired a full spread of 4-6 torpedoes at a time.

German skippers late war had little choice, advances in radar and sonar meant that the only attacks they could have a reasonable chance of making were by submerging off the beam of the convoy ahead of it, running in under the surface and taking a long range shot at a good target then trying to run away before being sunk. Mid war the growing allied anti-sub abilities were a problem for newer skippers who didn't have the experience needed to penetrate a convoy screen before attacking and continuing losses were slowly wiping out all the good skippers.

A course change of the target, bad range data, the slightest mistake in computation and the entire spread could easily miss the entire enemy convoy at these ranges. But there was little choice, it was far better to make a fair to poor attack and get away to make another rather than be almost certainly sunk setting up a perfect shot that might get you 2-3 ships.

 

[gazman]

SHark

'This is especialy a problem with torps. With the limited reloads and no modifiers except for flank hit, it is way too hard to hit them.'

Have you actually played civilian ships in the convoy scenario??

I lost ten civilian ships in two turns last night to six U boats.

Even though it requires a six to hit, if you hit a tramp steamer, it's toast.

Torps don't get any modifiers apart from Beam on - and if you've got any sense you get them beam on. So they are 5 to hit. When you do hit with torps, they are AP, so you need to roll higher than 1 to damage. With so many damage dice and so little damage, the steamer tends to sink with one salvo.

Make them any easier to hit and they might as well not be there....[/quote]

 

[Wishbone]

I still say tramps have no business being 6+ to hit. should be 4 plus...

 

[gazman]

You can't seriously believe it's as easy to hit a tramp steamer as it is to hit the Yamoto?
One is over twice the length, and probably draft, of the other!

OK the maximum speed of a tramp steamer is less than most other ships, but that's a maximum, you may only move 1" in a turn with a destroyer - should you reduce the 'to hit' score for that turn?
Speed is already factored in to the 'to hit' roll with flank speed +1 (Pretty badly IMHO)

Play the convoy game with tramps at 4 to hit and see where you get to...


Si

 

[Wishbone]

Yamato would be harder to hit. it could turn very quickly and go much faster.
i am suggesting it would be as easy to hit as a liberty or victory.

they can't move, they cant turn, and they're only about 50 feet shorter than a liberty?

also, if they're loaded, they'll have an enormous sillouette.

all recipies for easy hits, if you ask me.

 

[MektonZero]

The problem is that in real life it wasn't easy. Longer engagement ranges only compounded the problem, more time for things to go wrong with the torpedo, more time for a random course change, vastly increased chances for a minuscule mistake in estimating target range or speed to throw the torpedo track off by several boat lengths.

Easy was firing a torpedo against an unaware target from 1,000 yards away or less. Even then you aren't guaranteed anything, especially in the early war. There was a US skipper who fired his remaining 9 torpedoes from perfect position against a stationary Japanese ship and failed to get a detonation.

Most "easy" torpedo shots were taken against unaware targets at less than 1,000 yards; usually at night since it only took one lookout spotting the periscope to completely spoil the surprise needed to ensure a steady target solution.

Still, nothing you can't house rule. Give a +1 to hit from a range of 1" or less and another +2 if the enemy fleet hasn't detected any of your units and hasn't been attacked yet.

 

[DM]

Give an attack bonus of +1 if range under 10 as in new Tornement Rules for torps and guns.

The +1 for ranges under 10" was proposed in OOB to apply only to gunnery (thats certainly what we playtested). Whether this will be reflected in the tournament rules, or whether Matt has decided to apply the modifier to torpedoes as well as gunnery in OOB I don't know. However, I hope he hasn't

 

[gazman]

Yamato would be harder to hit. it could turn very quickly and go much faster.

From what I can see, these things are not factored into the 'to hit' score.

They come in the form of special action modifiers.
Evasive gives a negative factor to hit and simulates the ship taking evasive action.
Flank speed gives a negative to hit and simulates the ship going very fast.

You have to remember that although a big battleship can go reasonably fast, it might not do in every turn. I had Renown moving at 1" a turn in my last game.

It looks as though, rightly or wrogly, the Mongoose team have based 'to hit' purely on 'size'.

If speed affected the 'to hit' then Zertorers should be more difficult to hit than JKNs, as they have a higher top speed....


DM - we only apply the 'within ten' +1 to main guns.
Si

 

[DM]

Well done

 

[gazman]

It made using submerged subs simpler!

 

[Wishbone]

but it isn't to hit by 'size', it's by displacement. as I said, the tramp is only slightly shorter than the other merchantmen, and yet it is a 6+ to hit. it's ludicrous!

 

[DM]

Hit numbers are based on length, not displacement (which determines damage points)