Centauri beams: Yay or Nay?

[emperorpenguin]

Thought I'd throw the cat amongst the pigeons and see what the general consensus on this is :twisted:

As many of you will know I play Centauri and love my beam equipped Primus I've played them in ACTA, B5Wars & my BFG conversion. I also use to play Centauri in the EFSB rules where they had no beam weapons and I usually lost!

So the question is what do you think regarding the Centauri and lasers?

On the for side there's the precedent of B5 wars, there's the argument that just because we never see centauri lasers it doesn't mean they don't exist....., the seeming illogicality of not using beams, the assertion that Narn lasers were developed from Centauri versions

On the against side there's the lack of beams in the series, the EFSB rules, the evidence from Franklin & Garibaldi which says that the Centauri use explosive rather than cutting energy weapons, the ion cannons from the RPG and G'Kar's references to Ion Cannons which have (RPG aside) never made it into a B5 game.....

 

[Ken]

just in terms of game balance, i think it would suck if the Centauri did not have any weapons that could negate interceptors. and being the Lions of the Galaxy, i would think that they would most certainly have the technology, even if they didn't use it on the show.

i don't remember seeing the minbari using non-beam weapons... but they still got it.

 

[lupus]

I guess its a case of what makes it all balance...

Not that having weapons that cut through interceptors matter's...Not all ships have them and even when they do you can still take them down...

 

[luckygit]

Correct me if i am wrong but dint the Narn sell captured Centauri "beam emitters" to earth in the film “in the beginning” claiming that they dint mind if the Minbari capture them as it would only lead back to the Centauri any way.


But to be honest I kind of like them as they are I think any change would make them to similar to others races. Maybe we need an “what if” ship to compare it with so we could have a good look and make an informed choice.

 

[frobisher]

I say they stay - fluff demands them (even if on screen evidence doesn't), plus the "exploding" thing was given as unique to the Centauri, however it wasn't stated it was the only weapon they had, just predominant; Given the major constituent of the Centauri fleet at the time is the Demos, armed with the Heavy Particle Array that's your question answered

However, it could also be that the Battle Laser (which is mostly unique to the Centauri) does operate in an "explosive" manner when raking across the surface so operating as a beam that cause the area raked across to "erupt" outwards rather than cut inwards.

Of course, since we've never seen them fire, who knows [shrug].

the ion cannons from the RPG and G'Kar's references to Ion Cannons which have (RPG aside) never made it into a B5 game.....

G'kar's reference wasn't to a starship weapon though...

 

[ShadowScout]

Well, the question has come up before.
That's what the last Licenseholders (Agents of Gaming) had to say about it on the old B5W mailing list:

"I have looked at the original drawings at the Babylonian Studios. On these drawings the four laser barrels are clearly shown and called out. This, of course, is the most overriding argument and was what I stated about them to several people originally when this arguement was first broached." (Robert Glass)

"I have a wireframe of the Primus battlecruiser that clearly shows two long, thin gun barrels under each wing. The laser emplacements on the Narn ships are long and thin there by indicating that this a standard configuration for a laser weapon. All pulse weapons are short and stubby. The only exception to this rule is the Earth heavy laser. Even it, though is longer than their SPBs. Minbari neutron lasers further point to long thin weapon systems being laser-type weapons. The Narn stole most of their technology from the Centauri. In some cases, they re-engineered them to something more to their liking. Thus, the heavy laser from the battle laser." (Robert Glass)

"Finally, I would also like to point out that arguing that the weapons on the Primus are not correct is in truth a losing proposition. Sometime ago we created a ship, specifically because of arguements from this newsgroup, to more closely ape the ship as seen in the show.
It is the Secundus. As we had not seen it fire the lasers, we removed them, and replaced them and some TAs with the heavy arrays. As no fighter was ever seen with these ships, we also removed the fighters.
In both cases that are generally sited from the show, the Centauri ship was going to be boarding enemy vessels. Thus, we made it an assault ship and added the assault shuttles and the ability to carry breaching pods. The Primus is simply the original version of this ship. If the argument is going to extend to all Centauri lasers I will say I see absolutely no basis for this arguement. Nearly every race utilizes one sort of laser or laser-type weapon or another as their long range firepower. The only exceptions I can think of are the Pak'Ma'Ra, Drazi and Vree who each have their own specialized weapon systems. There is simply no weapon that is better for long range firepower. It only makes logical sense for the Centauri to utilize a good long range laser to complement their excellent sensor suites." (Robert Glass)

See?
If Babylonian Productions say the primus has Lasers, then it has lasers. Period. Even if most Centauri weapons (like the ones mounted on the Demii that were the subject of that "weapon type" discussion in S-5) work in "explosive mode", at least the Primus and a few other ships must have lasers... (and actually they ought to have pretty advanced lasers; since technically the Centauri are still ahead of the Narn or Humans...)

 

[emperorpenguin]

the ion cannons from the RPG and G'Kar's references to Ion Cannons which have (RPG aside) never made it into a B5 game.....

G'kar's reference wasn't to a starship weapon though...

We don't know that. There's 2 references to Ion Cannons

In "Acts of Sacrifice" G'Kar admonishes the Narn on the station for being brave when there's no Centauri Ion Cannon pointed at their head. This might mean that it's a personal weapon or it could be a figure of speech.

In "And Now For A Word" G'Kar announces to the council that the destroyed Centauri vessel was carrying parts for mass drivers, ion cannons and other high energy weapons.

To me that makes it a starship weapon. Ion Cannons feature in the Centauri Factbook for the roleplaying game. They're shorter range than lasers but more powerful.

 

[emperorpenguin]

See?
If Babylonian Productions say the primus has Lasers, then it has lasers. Period. Even if most Centauri weapons (like the ones mounted on the Demii that were the subject of that "weapon type" discussion in S-5) work in "explosive mode", at least the Primus and a few other ships must have lasers... (and actually they ought to have pretty advanced lasers; since technically the Centauri are still ahead of the Narn or Humans...)

As a former B5Wars player I was already familiar with that text. I agree with much of it.
It seems obvious that the Centauri would have lasers if younger races do but on the other hand you can't say "Nearly every race utilizes one sort of laser or laser-type weapon or another as their long range firepower. The only exceptions I can think of are the Pak'Ma'Ra, Drazi and Vree who each have their own specialized weapon systems." Who says the Centauri don't fall into that category of using their own specialised firepower? The evidence in Season 5 suggests they do!

As I said I'm stirring up debate!

 

[frobisher]

We don't know that. There's 2 references to Ion Cannons

In "Acts of Sacrifice" G'Kar admonishes the Narn on the station for being brave when there's no Centauri Ion Cannon pointed at their head. This might mean that it's a personal weapon or it could be a figure of speech.

Even as a figure of speech, that points toward a personal weapon...

In "And Now For A Word" G'Kar announces to the council that the destroyed Centauri vessel was carrying parts for mass drivers, ion cannons and other high energy weapons.

To me that makes it a starship weapon.

Or perhaps a banned, high-energy, anti-personel weapon? All as part of your "Subjugate a world in ten days" kit...

The thing is, we don't ever see Ion Cannons used either in the series

 

[emperorpenguin]

We don't know that. There's 2 references to Ion Cannons

In "Acts of Sacrifice" G'Kar admonishes the Narn on the station for being brave when there's no Centauri Ion Cannon pointed at their head. This might mean that it's a personal weapon or it could be a figure of speech.

Even as a figure of speech, that points toward a personal weapon...

In "And Now For A Word" G'Kar announces to the council that the destroyed Centauri vessel was carrying parts for mass drivers, ion cannons and other high energy weapons.

To me that makes it a starship weapon.

Or perhaps a banned, high-energy, anti-personel weapon? All as part of your "Subjugate a world in ten days" kit...

The thing is, we don't ever see Ion Cannons used either in the series

No the second reference definitely points to a ship based weapon.

Who says we don't see Ion Cannons? :? Some B5 support sites eg Hyperspace etc actually call the Centauri weapons we know as twin arrays/plasma accelerators ion cannons

At no point are the Centauri weapons named.
In fact few weapons and ships ever are.

The only named ships in the series are the Omega class, Warlock class, White Star class, Starfuries, Frazis
The only weapons named are heavy lasers, pulse cannons, neutron cannons, fusion lasers, energy mines

 

[frobisher]

No the second reference definitely points to a ship based weapon.

Give the exact quote and I might yield But as given above, it's just weapons' components.

Who says we don't see Ion Cannons? :? Some B5 support sites eg Hyperspace etc actually call the Centauri weapons we know as twin arrays/plasma accelerators ion cannons

However, none of those have been through the WB/Babylonian approval system so they don't count

The only weapons named are heavy lasers, pulse cannons, neutron cannons, fusion lasers, energy mines

Also "Mine Launchers" which the refitted B5 has, plus "Plasma Cannons" (the Hyperion's guns are referred to as such), "Particle Cannons" (the big guns on the Earth's orbital defence network)...

 

[emperorpenguin]

Give the exact quote and I might yield But as given above, it's just weapons' components.

It is just weapon components but it's the context.

Also "Mine Launchers" which the refitted B5 has, plus "Plasma Cannons" (the Hyperion's guns are referred to as such), "Particle Cannons" (the big guns on the Earth's orbital defence network

Mine launchers correct but you're wrong on the Hyperion, Ivanova says the "forward guns" there is no mention of plasma guns in the series at all!
Unless you know what PPG stands for :wink:

 

[frobisher]

Unless you know what PPG stands for :wink:

Pretty Prop Gun..? The "official" meaning doesn't actually make sense though, what's a phased plasma?

I've got this growing list of episodes I'm going to have to rewatch again... (oh woe is me )

 

[emperorpenguin]

Just watched the episode "And Now for a Word" again and the quote from G'Kar is
".....that the destroyed Centauri was carrying fusion bombs and support equipment for Mass Drivers, Ion Cannons and Heavy Energy Weapons"

Not 100% conclusive but it would seem odd to include an assault rifle in amongst a list of weapons of mass destruction......

 

[Pauly_D]

(and actually they ought to have pretty advanced lasers; since technically the Centauri are still ahead of the Narn or Humans...)

if the Narns and humans have beam weapons then the centauri must have the tech for it (bearing in mind that the centauri are hundreds of years more advanced than the Humans/Narns)

 

[emperorpenguin]

(and actually they ought to have pretty advanced lasers; since technically the Centauri are still ahead of the Narn or Humans...)

if the Narns and humans have beam weapons then the centauri must have the tech for it (bearing in mind that the centauri are hundreds of years more advanced than the Humans/Narns)

The Vree and Drazi have both been in space hundreds of years longer than them but don't use lasers.........

 

[Pauly_D]

but the Drazi are not particulary intelligent (not that we get the impression anyway)
and the Vree trade with other races but in their area of space there are mainly less advanced races who also probably wouldnt have discovered beam weapons

 

[Traveller-61]

If we are going to take the beams away from the Centauri then they should get something in return.

Watching "And Now For a Word" the Centauri fires short bursts (4 pulses?) of bolts that do a lot of damage to the G'Quan; in fact one lot clearly strikes the lower hull but the blast and debris is seen coming from the upper hull!

My take would be for a super heavy pulse cannon with maybe triple damage; exact AD etc I have not got around to yet. Of course it would be interceptable but as their greatest enemy does not have interceptors would it matter to the designers that much?

Over to the rest of you!

DW

 

[emperorpenguin]

but the Drazi are not particulary intelligent (not that we get the impression anyway)
and the Vree trade with other races but in their area of space there are mainly less advanced races who also probably wouldnt have discovered beam weapons

propaganda, for an "unintelligent" race they've got the biggest empire in the league, funky ships and good weaponry

PS I hated that Drazi Ranger in LOTR. Oh wait that's a very confusing abbreviation! Legend of the Rangers

 

[emperorpenguin]

If we are going to take the beams away from the Centauri then they should get something in return.

Watching "And Now For a Word" the Centauri fires short bursts (4 pulses?) of bolts that do a lot of damage to the G'Quan; in fact one lot clearly strikes the lower hull but the blast and debris is seen coming from the upper hull!

My take would be for a super heavy pulse cannon with maybe triple damage; exact AD etc I have not got around to yet. Of course it would be interceptable but as their greatest enemy does not have interceptors would it matter to the designers that much?

Over to the rest of you!

DW

First of all I love my Battle Lasers, I regularly whoop the poor boresightees with 'em!
But I wouldn't mind if they were replaced with a non beam weapon.
My take would be the Ion Cannon. It would be lots of dice, either double or triple damage, medium range, AP/Super AP

Centauri seem to be a high firepower/overkill race. As evidenced by their doctrine (espoused by G'Kar) of pounding everything before hitting the next target and Garibaldi's line to Sheridan about the Centauri packing huge amounts of firepower onto their ships

What got me thinking about this again was Shane's comment to me at the tournament (as I rolled a ton of twin array dice) that "that's the way the Centauri seem to be in the series: lots of firepower" and I said "yeah and no beams" as my battle lasers chewed up his Novas......