CAs for creatures with multiple attacks...

[Halfbat]

What are GMs doing about the situation when a creature has potentially multiple attacks (with its off-hand/off-head/off-tail/off-wings)? Are you increasing CA's to compensate or doing something else? The poll gives replies to an example below.

A horse has a kick attack and 2 CA = 2 CA possibly both kicks. Simple.

A werewolf has a bite attack and a Claw attack (or two claws) and 2 CA. How should this work? I can see several options:

i) He has potentially 2 CA, only.
ii) He has 2 CA at normal +1 attack at -20% for more than one (natural) weapon.
iii) He has 2 CA at normal +2 attacks at -20% for having three natural weapons.

If you're around, MS, an official answer would be appreciated.

Thanks

 

[hoc]

Rules using more than one weapon are interesting and not very clearly written. Since the additional attack/parry with a -20% modifier seems to come from the offhand so to speak, it could be interperted that you get additional attacks/parries with you "free limbs".

Combat actions are much more than just attacks and parries (spellcasting and movement for example), and they govern reactions too.. The "extra attack/parry with using more than one weapon is really great, but it opens up a big can of variables.

If a person is fighting with only a 1 handed sword, does he get an additional unarmed -20% attack with his free offhand? Does a person using unarmed fighting get the additinal attack and parry, or does that come into play only when using a shield/1hweapon with the offhand? And what about kicks, do legs count as additional weapons? (if a headbutt or a bite is considered an extra attack, you could use a headbutt with -20% penalty after bashing someone with your normal CA:s worth with a greatsword. Or could you kick someone after hitting them 3 times with a greatsword?)

I was reading the RQ-monsters book and read about timinits, especially the myrmidons who use two shields and two swords in their four arms.
Is there any benefit in their four arms, do the myrmidons get 3 additional attacks/parries at -20% in accordance with their 3 "extra" arms?

 

[Halfbat]

Rules using more than one weapon are interesting and not very clearly written. Since the additional attack/parry with a -20% modifier seems to come from the offhand so to speak, it could be interperted that you get additional attacks/parries with you "free limbs".

Absolutely.

the myrmidons who use two shields and two swords in their four arms: Is there any benefit in their four arms, do the myrmidons get 3 additional attacks/parries at -20% in accordance with their 3 "extra" arms?

Exactly the point. Or in the myrmidon's case 1 extra attack/parry with it's weapon and 1 extra parry/attack with each of its shields. If a creature has a bite attack at 1D8 and claws at 1D6 why fight with anything other than the bite unless benefit comes form the extra attacks?

 

[soltakss]

Rules [snip] are [snip] not very clearly written.

Never a truer word ....

 

[Utgardloki]

For most creatures, such as cats, werewolves, etc, their multiple claws reflect a greater possibility of damage with one attack. A cat for example, will either swipe with one claw, or else try to grab you with two claws, or try to bite you. Thus, for a cat (or lion, etc), it seems that the claws and bits are just different weapons they can use, and they'd only get the use of one per CA unless they were taking a "two weapon penalty".

In D&D, there is a feat for monsters called "multiattack", which a monster needs to be able to use mulitple weapons with full effectiveness. Runequest monsters could also have a similar quality. A werewolf could have such a feat, and be able to attack twice with each CA, perhaps at a minus 20% penalty, the same as a person using two weapons with a Two Weapon Fighting advantage (which doesn't exist in Runequest, but imagine if one does with the same benefit that TWF grants in D&D). Mr Werewolf could therefore concentrate on one attack at full effectiveness, or use both attacks at minus 20%. He'd be able to do this for each CA that his strike rank grants him.

 

[simonh]

Personaly, I think the best way to deal with this would be a generic mechanic that gave a bonus to multi-weapon attacks, whether they be actual weapons or opportunistic just punch/kick attacks with a free limb. This would eliminate any ambiguity without resorting to D&D style special abilities that are contrary to the RuneQuest way of doing things - a single set of flexible rules that apply equaly to everybody.

On possibility that occurs to me is a simple cumulative penalty on multiple attacks with the same weapon in the same round, say -20%. Thus a character with 3 actions that attacks with the same sword would attack on their first action at full chance, second action at -20% and third action with -40%.

However attacks with a different weapon don't suffer from the penalty, so the same character with 2 swords could attack once with one sword at full chance, again with the second sword at full chance, and then make a second attack with either sword at -20%, or make a kick attack at full chance.

In most situations characters would probably still attack with a 'proper' weapon again due to the improved damage and skill, but there are circumstances where they might choose to try a shield bash, kick, etc and this would be a credible tactic. For creatures with multiple natural weapons (bite and 2 claws for example, or tail attacks) they would normaly make attacks with each of them - a case of the rules naturaly encouraging sensible behaviour. Thus Scorpion Men would naturaly benefit. They wouldn't get any 'free' attacks, but their tail means they can avoid the cumulative penalty.

This rule would also limit the unballancing effects of having more actions than you're opponent, while still making it a significant advantage.

A possible 'companion' rule would be to apply the same mechanic to parries, thus multiple parries with the same weapon (or shield) gets a cumulative -20% penalty. We've all seen combats in films where a characetr parries with both sword and shield, well this would at least make that kinds of thing feasible.

Both of these rules would be very handy for characetrs specialising in unarmed combat, and encourage the mobile multi-limb attack and parry/dodge sequences that we all love from Chinese cinema.

 

[Halfbat]

Nice ideas simonh. Might try them out.

 

[Rurik]

I would even venture to consider allowing 1 Bonus CA that has to be used as an off hand attack per extra attack at NO penalty.

Take a Werewolf. In RQ 2/3 they had three attacks to a characters one, none at any penalty. La Machine.

If they have 2 CA on average and get 2 bonus attacks they have four total. Fighting a Human with 2 CA they now only have twice as many attacks compared with three times as many before.

And most characters will have 3 CA, so having multiple natural weapons isn't much of an advantage. Creatures with multiple attacks in MRQ are much weaker than they were in previous editions.

EDIT: Just for the record I voted 2 bonus CA's at -20%.

 

[Gnarsh]

Pretty much agree with simon on this one. However, as I've suggested in several threads, I'd make the penalty *much* higher then a simple -20%.

My basic concept is similar though. Instead of trying to say someone has an "extra" attack or parry if he equips an extra weapon/shield, just apply a large minus to any second (or third) use of the same skill with the same weapon/shield/limb/whatever. I'd put the minus at like 40 or 50% though. That way there's a significant reason to equip two weapons if you want to attack multiple times in a round for decent damage.

So the advantage for those equiping multiple weapons, or creatures with multiple natural attacks, isn't that they physically get more combat actions, but that they can use their combat actions to greater effect. The idea is that a CA4 creature with multiple limbs will be able to dish out much greater "harm" then a CA4 creature without those additional attacks. As suggested earlier, the scorpionman effectively gets an extra attack with a full skill chance, rather then a plain extra attack.

There's several reasons why this makes more sense to me. First off, it more closely translates the concept of SRs from RQ1-3 to the CAs of MRQ. Additionally, it addresses the "problem" of characters with high dexes having a huge advantage early on, but then kinda gaining nothing at the high end of the game scale. After all, if I'm CA3, I gain an extra attack if I equip two weapons. But if I'm CA4, I gain *nothing*. That seems silly to me. The number of CAs should simply measure the total number of actions you can take in a round. Your skill proficiencies and equiped items should determine how many of those can be attacks/parries and at what skill level. By applying a very large minus to successive use of the same weapon/shield you can eliminate whole pages of bulky rules in MRQ. You no longer need worry about figuring out when you get to use your bonus attack or parry. You just go on every CA you have, and if you ever do the same action twice, each time after the first, you subtract 50%. Very very simple...

 

[Halfbat]

Nice ideas, Gnarsh. Rather than flat 50% (which I appreciate makes things simple) it's tempting to accumulate something (such as 20%) each time an additional identical action is used (what about move??? ).

For a high Dex giving four CA with the same weapon from a 60% skill? The progression would end up something like 60%, 40%.. 20% ... then sorry, you can't attack again with that one.

The off-hand weapon already starts at -20% for the first additional CA, then could be used for normal CA's with a similar penalty each time (so for two sets of attacks the sequence would be 1st wpn 60% -> 40% -> 20% then second weapon would step from 40% -> 20%.

What about multiple parries/Reactions? Penalise them, too?

 

[Gnarsh]

Nice ideas, Gnarsh. Rather than flat 50% (which I appreciate makes things simple) it's tempting to accumulate something (such as 20%) each time an additional identical action is used (what about move??? ).

For a high Dex giving four CA with the same weapon from a 60% skill? The progression would end up something like 60%, 40%.. 20% ... then sorry, you can't attack again with that one.

The off-hand weapon already starts at -20% for the first additional CA, then could be used for normal CA's with a similar penalty each time (so for two sets of attacks the sequence would be 1st wpn 60% -> 40% -> 20% then second weapon would step from 40% -> 20%.

What about multiple parries/Reactions? Penalise them, too?

The -50% is cumulative. Also. the "bonus attack" with an offhand weapon or bonus parry with a shield is eliminated. You simply apply a cumulative -50% to each attempt of an attack, parry or dodge that you've already done that round.

For example: You have 3CAs. You spend your first one attacking with your sword at full skill. You spend the second one attacking a second time with the same sword at -50%. On your third CA, you decide to kick or shield bash since you figure you've got a better chance of getting something through at that point (cause you'd be at -100% with your sword if you didn't).

If you equipped an offhand sword you'd get to use your first attack at full skill. Then attack with the offhand at full skill again. Then attack with either weapon for a third attack at -50%. If you had a 4th CA, you could actually then attack for the second time with the other weapon for another attack with that sword at -50% (compared with a whopping -150% skill if you'd tried to attack 4 times with the same sword).

In that system, equipping a shield gives you a second *different* defensive action (you could dodge one attack, parry another with the shield, and potentially parry a third time with your weapon for three full skill defensive actions). If you didn't have the shield equipped (or an offhand weapon), you'd only get one parry and one dodge and then the next defensive action would be at -50%.

An alternative rule would also just be to eliminate reactions as well. Since skills decrease rapidly, just use those to determine what you can do. Just add in a rule that once you fail a skill/limb combo you can no longer attempt that skill again that round. So once you miss a dodge, you can't dodge anymore. Once you miss with your left handed parry, you can't parry with your left hand anymore (with whatever you have equipped there).

The idea here is to make it so that CA's don't rule the game (and by extension the DEX stat), to maintain the advantage of equipping multiple weapons and/or having extra limbs to attack/defend with, and to also retain the idea that character skill has a huge effect on the result of a combat. By making the skill reductions *large* you do that. Making them small (like -20) trivializes them. No one's going to run out of skill before they run out of CAs, and you're always going to choose to use your 2h weapon at -60% before kicking someone, right? Now, you'd darn well better be a double-master with that greatsword if you want to get 4 attacks off with it reliably.

I just think it does a better job of simulating a combat round. I just personally *hate* the idea that dex and dex alone determines how many attacks you can make in a round...

 

[Halfbat]

I just think it does a better job of simulating a combat round. I just personally *hate* the idea that dex and dex alone determines how many attacks you can make in a round...

There's another thread on this as well. I think that combat skill should also enable additional attacks or be factored into it in some way, and I do like the additional decrement idea.

I wish I knew where that thread went...