Canon Versus stats....

[H]

Just been pondering, I have heard a few mentions of things being made Cannon, and this is the basis for some decisions, this of course flies in the face of some evidence and I was wondering on everyone elses thoughts.

For instance, I will use my favourite fleet, the Narn.
Cannon - the G'Quan has dual beams, that are clearly not boresight.
Game - 3AD Beam, boresight.

what are peoples thoughts on issues like this, is Cannon God, or is playeability? Is using Cannon a good excuse for a potentially poor stat? or ignoring cannon good for game balance? And this can of course work all ways, should the Whitestar be able to go "all power to weapons", should the Victory have 2 power settings on the Zap-O Matic Lightining cannon?
your thoughts please

 

[Burger]

Game balance > all. If it's a choice between something being cannon but over/underpowered, or being just the right power but not canon, then the balanced one wins every time for me.

That being said, there is no reason why the game can't be canon and balanced. Using your example, the G'Quan's weapons could be 2x 2AD single-damage beams on the F arc. Satisfies canon, and is not overpowered. The beauty of ACTA is that it is not based on anything historical, so ships other stats can be tweaked, to make the ship balanced.

 

[H]

this is true, their are relatively few cannon ships compared to what we see in the show.
personally, I think 2 Double damage 2AD forward beams would suit (of course I am biased) as it is still less dice than the 6AD toted by the Primus for example ... which probabably shouldn't have a beam at all!

of course some cannon is unplayeable, eg the Vree fire straight down from their ships.

 

[Burger]

of course some cannon is unplayeable, eg the Vree fire straight down from their ships.

That is represented by SM, and the T arc The saucers can face their underneath in any direction.

 

[H]

yeah, i guess

 

[Lord David the Denied]

Hiff, it's "canon," not "cannon." Totally different words... :wink:

That said, the Centauri in the game don't seem to have much relationship with the Centauri on screen, and some of the other races seem to have taken a departure from what we see, too. EA and Narn beams being boresighted when we see them firing in much wider arcs being the prime example.

I'm all for game balance, but I'd rather see nasty, canonical ships at high PLs or with rarity or similar rules applied to them than the same ship toned down to fit some arbitary balance ideas. We see Shadow ships kill G'Quans in one shot, so they should be able to do that... and have a cost that reflects that ability. We see three Vorchans kill a G'Quan in a few shots, so again, three Vorchans' combined fire should be enough to do that, and their cost reflect this.

If people are saying "why is this awesome ship sucking so hard?" it's time to look back at the show and see where you've gone wrong...

 

[katadder]

the problem with the show is everything is done to further the story. you wouldnt want 20 vorchans on screen firing on a g'quan now would you?
plus by the PLs 3 vorchans = 1 g'quan anyway and if they can get into its rear or side arcs then they can kill it.

 

[Lord David the Denied]

the problem with the show is everything is done to further the story. you wouldnt want 20 vorchans on screen firing on a g'quan now would you?
plus by the PLs 3 vorchans = 1 g'quan anyway and if they can get into its rear or side arcs then they can kill it.

*EDIT*

I just watched the scene I was talking about on youtube, and I only saw two Vorchans firing on the G'Quan, and they appeared to be above and below it, attacking from the sides. So they were in arc to be fired at with the pulse cannons, at least.

The show is the only official reference we have. Like Burger said, ACtA isn't based on documented historical fact, so things can be changed, but it is based on the television series. What we see on the table should reflect what we see on screen. Otherwise we might as well remove the B5 logos and make up our own setting.

 

[H]

cannon, canon, colcanon, whatever ;-)

The only explanation for things at present is Crits
I mean, yes, a shadow ship will beat a G'quan, of that their is little doubt, can it do it in one shot, probably not, unless it gets a crit or 3 in there. the same probably can't be said for Vorchans, they would loose at least one, if not two on the way in, and then the 2 G'Quan frazis could just sit behond the third and slowly nibble it to death. I suppose on shot one kill is NOT something I want to see no matter how canon, unless it's an obvious mismatch, eg Octurion firing on a cutter

 

[katadder]

the problem with the show is everything is done to further the story. you wouldnt want 20 vorchans on screen firing on a g'quan now would you?
plus by the PLs 3 vorchans = 1 g'quan anyway and if they can get into its rear or side arcs then they can kill it.

Were they in its rear or side arcs on screen? No, they attacked from in front, above and below, and in about five seconds the G'Quan was a cloud of expanding gas.

The show is the only official reference we have. Like Burger said, ACtA isn't based on documented historical fact, so things can be changed, but it is based on the television series. What we see on the table should reflect what we see on screen. Otherwise we might as well remove the B5 logos and make up our own setting.

but then a crippled g'quan with B5s help killed a secundus almost straight away.
WSs get killed in one shot by many things when they do get hit.
same with sunhawks and strikehawks.
Sharlins kill EA ships with one slice of their beams.
a WS killed a mothership and sliced it in half just by sitting in front of it firing its beam.
2 omegas fight 2 omegas and B5 and nearly cripple B5 as well as destroying another omega, and only losing cos the wrecked omega rammed one of them.
the WSs totally rape the shadow omega fleet, which if you listen to Ivonava she says the WSs were outnumbered by shadow omegas.

the show sometimes contradicts itself as well depending on if the CGI guys did a good job or not. some things can try and be based similar to the show but as the show just made stuff up to carry the story forward it wont always work.

 

[Lord David the Denied]

Some would say the Shadows attacking any younger race vessel is a horrible mis-match...

 

[emperorpenguin]

what are peoples thoughts on issues like this, is Cannon God, or is playeability? Is using Cannon a good excuse for a potentially poor stat? or ignoring cannon good for game balance? )

I think there is no reason as to why you cannot have BOTH canon AND playability myself.

 

[H]

I agree, (apart from one shot kills!) am I to assume that the G'Quan goes to Forward arc then ;-)

But seriously, where do you draw a line? how do you decide which canon to use, and which to change?

 

[emperorpenguin]

I agree, (apart from one shot kills!) am I to assume that the G'Quan goes to Forward arc then ;-)

But seriously, where do you draw a line? how do you decide which canon to use, and which to change?

I actually liked one-shot kills! 6-6 was fine 6-5 wasn-t

I have argued for removing boresight. No luck.

You just have to use common sense. But basically I disagree with ignoring something from the show or misrepresenting it. You can always balance something with enough thought and work

 

[H]

I minded when my BinTak took a 6-5 of old style rules, one hit, and out of the game, ggrrrrr

Boresight has it's place, some ships we see clearly do fire along their own axis, others clearly don't!

 

[Burger]

I disagree with ignoring something from the show or misrepresenting it. You can always balance something with enough thought and work

Quoted for truth!!!

 

[Lord David the Denied]

Boresight has it's place, some ships we see clearly do fire along their own axis, others clearly don't!

Like the White Star, for instance? The forward beam always seems to fire dead ahead...

 

[emperorpenguin]

I minded when my BinTak took a 6-5 of old style rules, one hit, and out of the game, ggrrrrr

Boresight has it's place, some ships we see clearly do fire along their own axis, others clearly don't!

I remember losing a Warlock to a 6-6, first hit it took, galling but we do see instant deaths in the show.

The White Star appears boresight but isn't
Drazi are boresight, so are Brakiri from the only evidence we have!

 

[Lord David the Denied]

How can something appear to be boresighted on screen but not be?

 

[emperorpenguin]

How can something appear to be boresighted on screen but not be?

because the White Star has a foward beam! :lol: