BoW looks at noble Armada
- Thread starter MarkDawg
- Start date
carrier plus 8 fighters is 230pts and fighters cannot enter battle without carriers.
what you have to know about fighters is that their weapons are weak, this means they cant actually hurt a ship unless someone has taken its shields down 1st and they also get -1 to the attack table meaning no crits and bulkheads on 1-2.
bombers can hurt ships but cost twice as much and have to reload between shots.
gatling lasers can also shoot down fighters ignoring the dodge, so if you surround a ship with gatling lasers it will shoot some fighters down.
what you have to know about fighters is that their weapons are weak, this means they cant actually hurt a ship unless someone has taken its shields down 1st and they also get -1 to the attack table meaning no crits and bulkheads on 1-2.
bombers can hurt ships but cost twice as much and have to reload between shots.
gatling lasers can also shoot down fighters ignoring the dodge, so if you surround a ship with gatling lasers it will shoot some fighters down.
if you can get that many troops in and they are all marauders than yes it will work.
however stealth ships you can see on a 4+ (can make it 3+ with a scout or getting enemy within 8" or 2+ when combining), once seen they are hull 3 so easy to hit.
if you were to try board a dreadnought with 3 of them as they suggested then you would only have 1 in the rear arc, probably one in the front and 1 to a flank. against a flank you have the full broadside, then you have gatling lasers to stop the boarding lines, and to kill troops if they do manage to board.
on the front you have a heavy meson cannon.
only the rear ship is unmolested.
the guy explaining it wanted to use stealth ships thats 220pts each for 3 of them fully loaded with marauders.
for that in hawkwood I would have a dreadnought and a scout plus 2 marauders on my dread or if knowing playing this guy i could up grade all my troops to marauders and save 10pts on him. the dreadnought should kill one on approach or even 2. if all 3 got there it has to go through the above, and its likely 2 will die.
then its 12 marauders versus 8 of my marines and 8 marauders (or 16 if i have upgraded them all). i have 8 cannon fodder before even giving up marauders. so from there it could go either way. but as i said thats only if all 3 get there.
however stealth ships you can see on a 4+ (can make it 3+ with a scout or getting enemy within 8" or 2+ when combining), once seen they are hull 3 so easy to hit.
if you were to try board a dreadnought with 3 of them as they suggested then you would only have 1 in the rear arc, probably one in the front and 1 to a flank. against a flank you have the full broadside, then you have gatling lasers to stop the boarding lines, and to kill troops if they do manage to board.
on the front you have a heavy meson cannon.
only the rear ship is unmolested.
the guy explaining it wanted to use stealth ships thats 220pts each for 3 of them fully loaded with marauders.
for that in hawkwood I would have a dreadnought and a scout plus 2 marauders on my dread or if knowing playing this guy i could up grade all my troops to marauders and save 10pts on him. the dreadnought should kill one on approach or even 2. if all 3 got there it has to go through the above, and its likely 2 will die.
then its 12 marauders versus 8 of my marines and 8 marauders (or 16 if i have upgraded them all). i have 8 cannon fodder before even giving up marauders. so from there it could go either way. but as i said thats only if all 3 get there.
As soon as the BoW guys play a game, they will find a lot of their 'super choices' aren't all that super, and the game is quite subtle.
You can see where they get the ideas though. On paper, a Stealthship looks all kind of awesome - can't be seen, and carries a bucket load of troops.
However, once you start playing, you quickly realise that just sailing up to an enemy will rob you of stealth and Hull 3 is paper-thin.
Stealthships _can_ be all kinds of awesome. But you have to figure out how to use them!
You can see where they get the ideas though. On paper, a Stealthship looks all kind of awesome - can't be seen, and carries a bucket load of troops.
However, once you start playing, you quickly realise that just sailing up to an enemy will rob you of stealth and Hull 3 is paper-thin.
Stealthships _can_ be all kinds of awesome. But you have to figure out how to use them!
Pfft... I'd sooner take 3 Griffins (with marauders) and 2 Wayfarers than rely on just 3 ships and I've just got the rulebook... and that only comes to 655, so might even gamble and upgrade one warfarer to marauders just for the heck of it if there's no other ships to buy...
Ok, so the Wayfarers are fragile, but not half as much as those stealths will be vs the destroyers...
Heck - maybe even a pack of Hornets would be fun to take against those... all you'd need to do is kill 1 of those stealths and you'd pretty much be evens against a boarding action, assuming you could get in to reinforce the boarded ship by counter-boarding with a second...
What do you guys think to 5 Frigates and 3 Explorers? Keep the Explorers (Wayfarers in my case) out of the fight as much as possible and try to set up a firefight with the stealths with the Frigates (Hornets)... That'd be 5x2 = 10 light lasers and 5 missile launchers being launched against the three stealth and you'd have a more agile fleet than their stealths if they were Decados (1 more 45 degree turn in the case of the Hornets and the same speed, faster and more agile in the case of the Wayfarers).
I'm asking because I'm trying to learn the game without the benefit of an opponent...
Ok, so the Wayfarers are fragile, but not half as much as those stealths will be vs the destroyers...
Heck - maybe even a pack of Hornets would be fun to take against those... all you'd need to do is kill 1 of those stealths and you'd pretty much be evens against a boarding action, assuming you could get in to reinforce the boarded ship by counter-boarding with a second...
What do you guys think to 5 Frigates and 3 Explorers? Keep the Explorers (Wayfarers in my case) out of the fight as much as possible and try to set up a firefight with the stealths with the Frigates (Hornets)... That'd be 5x2 = 10 light lasers and 5 missile launchers being launched against the three stealth and you'd have a more agile fleet than their stealths if they were Decados (1 more 45 degree turn in the case of the Hornets and the same speed, faster and more agile in the case of the Wayfarers).
I'm asking because I'm trying to learn the game without the benefit of an opponent...
As soon as you get within 20 inches the destroyers would start taking you apart. And a fleet with three destroyers can destroy one stealthship per turn. So you lose one going in, maybe another, and one on the turn you try to board. If you are up against speed 12 destroyers (like hawkwood for example) they can keep the range open.
At range 24.1-28 with two scout locks the first destroyer beats stealth on a 4 or less. If it is successful the second beats it on anything but a 6.
12 dice vs Hull 3 plus a reroll and ignoring shields. Average of 7 damage plus a critical. Three turns of that and one stealthship is dead. However even just being able to toast one stealthship with a fleet broadside on the way in and damage another means if you can get between them and get broadsides on each you'll probably toast both.
A straight frontal assault with stealthships is suicidal.
Stealthships are for sneaking around, sneaking up on things from behind and boarding them, for attacking isolated ships. They are even weaker than galliots in terms of hull and frequently weapons and have even worse problems going toe to toe with enemy warships.
At range 24.1-28 with two scout locks the first destroyer beats stealth on a 4 or less. If it is successful the second beats it on anything but a 6.
12 dice vs Hull 3 plus a reroll and ignoring shields. Average of 7 damage plus a critical. Three turns of that and one stealthship is dead. However even just being able to toast one stealthship with a fleet broadside on the way in and damage another means if you can get between them and get broadsides on each you'll probably toast both.
A straight frontal assault with stealthships is suicidal.
Stealthships are for sneaking around, sneaking up on things from behind and boarding them, for attacking isolated ships. They are even weaker than galliots in terms of hull and frequently weapons and have even worse problems going toe to toe with enemy warships.
godsgopher
Mongoose
While I have not read the "killer" configurations these reviewers have recommended, from what I see you guys talking about its pretty obvious these guys have fallen victim to making paper lions. Its quite easy to look at the numbers and see abilities that just don't exist in a real game, as well as to misunderstand the interactions between ships.
A Classic ACTA's example is the Sagittarius Missile Cruiser, original a raid level ship because it looked right on paper, but playing revealed it just was never in that class of ability.
A Classic ACTA's example is the Sagittarius Missile Cruiser, original a raid level ship because it looked right on paper, but playing revealed it just was never in that class of ability.
WTF is that they keep going on about with 60 fighters???
Wouldn't that just translate into a skeet (clay pigeon) shoot for a couple of ships or your fleet's smaller weapons while you pulverise their carriers?
Sooner or later his carriers will be gone and he'll have no reloads and no means of recovering scattered fighters, so...
If I knew I faced a lot of fighters, I think I'd aim for a fleet that'd kill those carriers ASAP with a few frigs to try to take down a few fighters...
Maybe a cruiser fleet - each gets two gatling lasers, so more of those with destroyer and frigate and explorer backup?
(Like I said earlier - I'm not able to play right now, so I'm just going on the book and on what seems to be a practical counter...)
Wouldn't that just translate into a skeet (clay pigeon) shoot for a couple of ships or your fleet's smaller weapons while you pulverise their carriers?
Sooner or later his carriers will be gone and he'll have no reloads and no means of recovering scattered fighters, so...
If I knew I faced a lot of fighters, I think I'd aim for a fleet that'd kill those carriers ASAP with a few frigs to try to take down a few fighters...
Maybe a cruiser fleet - each gets two gatling lasers, so more of those with destroyer and frigate and explorer backup?
(Like I said earlier - I'm not able to play right now, so I'm just going on the book and on what seems to be a practical counter...)
godsgopher
Mongoose
Some House's pure bomber fleets can prove devastating. But only if your opponent does not know that's what he's facing.And as previously stated even then the Carriers are the Achilles heel of such a force.
Anyway sounds like these guys are fixated on their paper tiger, and their not going to open their minds up to something new until Decados marines storm their ships and bring them in for some flesh modification.
Anyway sounds like these guys are fixated on their paper tiger, and their not going to open their minds up to something new until Decados marines storm their ships and bring them in for some flesh modification.
Agreed. The inability to buy fighters on their own - combined with the one-shot firepower of bombers - is a big limit.
The other thing to note is that the dodge score on bombers aren't that great. I would happily consider taking out two or three bombers before they can unload their weapons 'worth it' - unlike the somewhat wimpy gnats of the B5 version - so I'd have no hesitation in using destroyer- and even cruiser-grade turrets on them.
hmm true but then there are a reasonable number of bombers out there in B5 universe - compared to the dedicated fighters and interceptors. Those noted (although some are multirole - something that I don't think NA has yet)- plus the Vree fighter bomber, the big Drazi fighter and of course the Vorlon fighter.
Multirole platforms like the Starfury and the Sentri tend to have 3 or more non weak dice which although won't punch through shields would make a mess if a few of them attacked a non shielded ship.
The NA dedicated fighters have IIRC even less guns on the whole?
Multirole platforms like the Starfury and the Sentri tend to have 3 or more non weak dice which although won't punch through shields would make a mess if a few of them attacked a non shielded ship.
The NA dedicated fighters have IIRC even less guns on the whole?
Oh, massively so. 1-2 Weak attack dice is standard, and whilst one of them has 3AD I don't really feel it's a sensible decision by the house's shipwrights.
Making the fighter 0.1% less guff in strafing enemy ships (which it will rarely do) in return for making it noticably less capable in a dogfight (which is what it's really there for).
It's just that the actual strike craft are scary as compared to most B5 fighters - 3 Guided, Multihit 2, shield-ignoring weapons are about standard. An 8-strong wing of Mumit can total a destroyer without breaking a sweat in a single pass.
Of course, as noted by everyone (and overlooked by BoW) it'll take 2 turns for your carrier to get that wave into the void, and probably another two to close on any ship that doesn't wish to be closed on... by which time pretty much any destroyer in the game can do suitably unspeakable things to any light carrier.
One thought with fighters - since you can start with 'half launched', is it worth bulking out your bays with interceptors so you can start with your bombers all launched?
Making the fighter 0.1% less guff in strafing enemy ships (which it will rarely do) in return for making it noticably less capable in a dogfight (which is what it's really there for).
It's just that the actual strike craft are scary as compared to most B5 fighters - 3 Guided, Multihit 2, shield-ignoring weapons are about standard. An 8-strong wing of Mumit can total a destroyer without breaking a sweat in a single pass.
Of course, as noted by everyone (and overlooked by BoW) it'll take 2 turns for your carrier to get that wave into the void, and probably another two to close on any ship that doesn't wish to be closed on... by which time pretty much any destroyer in the game can do suitably unspeakable things to any light carrier.
One thought with fighters - since you can start with 'half launched', is it worth bulking out your bays with interceptors so you can start with your bombers all launched?
