Best and Worst Raid level ships

Humbaba

Mongoose
OK – I am almost afraid to post this list, as I dislike most of the top ships. I throw myself into the fire for completeness and to continue the insightful commentary of the experienced admirals out there. Here (reluctantly) is the (dubious) list of the best and worst Raid level ships…

The Best:
1- The Explorer Survey Ship – Earthforce – Third Age or Crusade Era (total rating 60.9)
As fast and graceful as a rusted out tractor, short ranged and under armed, hull 4 etc. The only saving grace is that it takes lots of damage and has interceptors 3, and Command +1. It has to be TA or CE because you have to sub Thunderbolts for the Starfurys so get any punch. Certainly not a ship I am likely to pick.
2- The Battle Wagon – Raider (52.4)
At least it has a half decent beam weapon. Hull 6 with Interceptors 2 makes it pretty tough, but it is too slow for the class.
3- The Tigara – Minbari (34.5)
As a (newly minted) Minbari player, I hate this ship. A Minbari ship with a heavy weapon of range 4 – I fielded two of these against a Narn force (read slow) last week and I could not get the Antimatter Converters to bear for the whole turn (cursed initiative sinks!). It does generate more critical hits then any other Raid ship though (can I trade in my AC for more MD dice please?)
4- The Prefect – Centauri (30.1)
Now this is a good all around ship - a solid general use pick! In a sense the fact that we have seen special purpose ships at the tops and bottoms of the lists just means that Mongoose is doing a good job (which they are, by the way!) If we saw a lot of general use ships at the ends of the lists there would be limited room for tactical choice – strong in one thing should mean week in another – the admirals can compensate.
5- The T’Rann – Narn (26.6)
I am surprised that the computer likes this one – all I can say is that it has a lot of dice. Is there anyone out there a fan of the T’Rann? (I mean are there any Narn players that are fans…)

The Worst: (starting with the worst)
1- The Dag’Kar – Narn (2.2)
A specialty ship without a doubt – with a 4 hull it is quite fragile for the Raid level. Mines are not that effective unless you are using them to overcome a specific defense system (like stealth – curse you Narn!!!)
2- The Solarhawk – Drazi (5.3)
A fragile ship with a big cannon – as a Raid level ship with only 18 damage and only 18 range (as opposed to some of the lower level torpedo boats with 20-30) I look forward to the group’s opinions on this one. Is speed 12 and range 18 enough to keep this one alive long enough to rack up the kills?
3- The Haltona – Brakiri (5.5)
Not as vulnerable as the Solarhawk, but still a questionable ship in my opinion.
4- The Demos – Centauri (5.9)
Another ship in the Solarhawk mode – again I think that the low defense rating and lack of true long range make this one questionable.
5- The Batrado – Brakiri (7.9)
At least it takes 64 points of damage before it blows up…

For the record the Whitestar comes out in the middle of the pack at 14.9 – its high level of maneuverability should have it work out fairly well if used to its best ability.

Humbaba
 
the 2 best raid ships have to be prefect and rakh light cruiser really. 3AD of forward facing beam. hull 6 on the prefect plus nice secondaries. the drakh cruiser is up there cos it has a GEG, all round weapons and precise on its beam too. the 2 cheese monsters of the raid level.
the explorer is pretty pants at the moment.
 
Yeah, I think the formula is going a bit wayward at this point. My selections would have been:

BEST:

1). Centauri Prefect
2). Centuari Sulust
3). Dilgar Targrath
4). Pak'Ma'Ra Urik'hal
5). Drakh Light Cruiser

Honorable Nominees: ISA Whitestar (when you can base a whole fleet from one Raid hull, that's one hell of a ship), Vree Xill, Drazi Solarhawk (heaven help me, I LIKE this ship...), Centauri Magnus, Minbari Ashinta, EA Hyperion (really!).

WORST:

1). Earth Explorer
2). Centauri Balavarin
3). Narn T'Rann
4). Minbari Esharan
5). Centauri Demos

Dishonorable Nominees: Narn Dag'Kar, Brakiri Batrado, Drakh Fast Destroyer.
 
When two of the worst ships make the top 5 list you know the math system is breaking down. :lol:

The Prefect has to be #1. Nothing is better than the Prefect at Raid. And it scales nicely since it has weapons that are good against Battle and War ships and Hull 6 ensures that it can take a beating.
 
Humm....

Top 5 power-for-points

1)
Centauri Prefect Armoured Cruiser - it has one vulnerability; breaching pods. Other than that it's just plain vicious.
2)
Dilgar Targrath Strike Cruiser
3)
Centauri Sullust Escort Destroyer
4)
Drakh Light Cruiser
5)
White Star

Top 5 that I just like - effective and characterful to play if not quite as devastating as the above

1) Raider Battlewagon
2) Centauri Elutarian Bombardment Destroyer
3) Pak'Ma'Ra Urik'Hal Supermerchant
4) EA Nova Dreadnought
5) Minbari Ashinta Heavy Escort

5 Ships that really don't cut the mustard

1)Narn T'Rann Heavy Carrier
2)Centauri Balvarin Carrier
3)Minbari Esharan Anti-fighter Frigate
4)Narn T'Loth Assault Cruiser
5)Drazi Solarhawk Battlecruiser
 
hmm, some odd results, the Dag-Kar does indeed suck though, terribly so. I used to love this little monster, now I only use it in VERY VERY specific scenarios, and it has never lasted beyond the first turn of firing, which is a tad odd as it's only really effective against fighters, until about turn 5 when you could bring some ship busters to bear. yet still, it seems people fear it, remembering the days when it was, without a doubt, the best damned raid ship ever.

The system seems to take hit points far too seriously, ships like the Drakh LC are by far and away the best ships out there , will probably get downgraded in 2nd ed now :-(, yet high damage taking ships seem to top the bill, most odd.
 
My choices would be personally:

Best 5:

Centauri Sullust - Tough and with a HORRIBLE beam.

Centauri Prefect - Pretty much the same but with matter cannons too...

EA Chronos - (Im sure anyone who knows me saw this one coming ;)) Not many hit points but hull 6 and 3 interceptors make it a NIGHTMARE to hurt with non beams and it packs a hell of a punch in all directions!

Dilgar Tagrath - Sick and Wrong. Thats the only way to describe this ship, its firepower on its own is terrifying. In a pentacon its an aboslute NIGHTMARE

Raider Battlewagon - No seriously! It may not look much at a glance but this is actually one HELL of a ship. High hull, lots of hitpoints, interceptors and a decent beam. And four flights of fighters too! (Ok so theyre Delta Vs but they can still tie up enemy fighters amd 4 delta vs will bring down a Nial happily! (if they can catch it of course....)


Worst 5:

Centauri Demos - For a ship that kicked so much ass in B5Wars mongoose really screwed this one up. WAY WAY to fragile and not enough firepower for a raid level ship. Hell its arguably too fragile for a SKIRMISH ship.

Minbari Esharan - An antifighter ship for a race whose regular secondary weapons already work that way anyway and have the best dogfighters in the game? Waste of a raid point.

Brakiri Bratado - It may be a brick but its weapons just plain suck. And it FLIES like a brick too.

EA Exlorer - Loads of hitpoints but weak hull make it crit fodder.

Narn Dag'Kar - Emines just dont cut it any more for anti ship work so a raid level ship dedicated to them is a waste. That and its built out of papier mache and dies as soon as anyone so much as sneezes in its direction.
 
I agree that i think the math is favoring damage and crew scores too much. that's why the whie star is "middle of the pack" and the explorer is so high.

At raid you can easily expect 20-30 inch weapons, and more than a few SAP beams. anything with slow speed (for short range weapons) or a low hull score (4!!!) is not very competitive at this level. Command +1 is nice, but there's far better use of a raid option in the EA fleet.

Chern
 
I agree with most of the posts after the first one on the orders of ship power. Here is my take:
(4.000 = arbitrary value, approx Raid PL ship)

Dag’Kar (Narn) 1.8498
Demos (Centauri) 1.9411
Solarhawk (Drazi) 1.9443
Haltona (Brakiri) 2.3267
Olympus Gunship (EA) 2.4851
Batrado (Brakiri) 2.5959
Halik (Brakiri) 2.8691
Rothan (Narn) 2.9485
Rongoth (Narn) 3.1328
Leshath (Minbari) 3.1536
Xill (Vree) 3.1871
Explorer (EA) 3.2417
Drakh Fast Cruiser (Drakh) 3.2563
Hyperion Pulse (EA) 3.2807
Delphi (EA) 3.3368
Balvarin (Centauri) 3.3471
Esharan (Minbari) 3.4688
Tantalus (EA) 3.517
Halik (Pak’ma’ra) 3.6052
Shadow Scout (Shadows) 3.6198
Urik’Hal (Pak’ma’ra) 3.6529
Vorlon Transport (Vorlons) 3.7369
Avenger (Early EA) 3.7515
T’Rann (Narn) 3.7651
Battlewagon (Raiders) 3.7967
Ashinta (Minbari) 3.827
Chronos (EA) 3.8376
Rohric (Dilgar) 3.8476
T’Loth (Narn) 3.8661
Bimith (Abbai) 3.9111
Hyperion (EA) 3.9529
Elutarian (Centauri) 3.9711
Nova (EA) 4.0024
Dargan (Centauri) 4.0440
Targrath (Dilgar) 4.0568
Altarian (Centauri) 4.0858
White Star (ISA) 4.0975
Centurion (Centauri) 4.1235
Teshlan (Minbari) 4.2325
Magnus (Centauri) 4.3303
Sulust (Centauri) 4.3368
Tigara (Minbari) 4.6795
Drakh Light Cruiser (Drakh) 4.8396
Prefect (Centauri) 5.1641

The list is pretty obvious for the most part to be honest, all except how good some of the "other" Centauri Raid PL ships are but that are rarely taken due to the abilities of the Prefect and Sulust. A good number of the ships are evenly matched but certain races really lose out such as the Brakiri, Drazi and Vree. Thankfully in all their cases they can take Abbai/Raiders allies if they really want a half-decent Raid PL choice.

p.s. The Teshlan and Tigara score so highly mainly because they are average ships (about 3.8-4.1) but have an awesome fighter worth over 0.5 on its own accompanying them.
 
see this is where you maths geeks dont know a thing :) a WS will lose to a nova due to the sheer amount of dice, yet will probably beat a prefect due to being able to stay behind it.
this game has some maths, but those who try to boil it down to pure maths really dont have a clue, as shown by the orginal posters list, that and his other lists at various levels too.
and as the EA player in our campaign found tonight, the light cruiser is better than a prefect due to being precise, having all round AP firepower and a GEG2 which meant his fighters did nothing. compared to the field day they would have against prefects.
you cannot boil ships down to pure maths, there situation, fleet conmposition, enemy fleet composition.
we know which are the best, we see them time and again. and am sure tank would put his olympus gunships up a bit higher on the list. 6AD beam? nasty.
 
I"m certain that, against a generic opponent, there is a numerical rating that qualifies them --- it's just a matter of finding the correct model! We're just not close, yet...

"Philosophy is written in this grand book--I mean the universe--which stands continually open to our glaze, but it cannot be understood unless one first learns to comprehend the language and interpret the characters in which it is written. It is written in the language of mathematics, and its characters are triangles, circles, and other geometric figures, without which it is humanly impossible to understand a single word of it." -- Galileo Galilei.

On the other hand, we can be mindful of:

"For every problem, there is one solution which is simple, neat, and wrong."
-- H. L. Mencken
 
katadder said:
see this is where you maths geeks dont know a thing :) a WS will lose to a nova due to the sheer amount of dice, yet will probably beat a prefect due to being able to stay behind it.
this game has some maths, but those who try to boil it down to pure maths really dont have a clue, as shown by the orginal posters list, that and his other lists at various levels too.
and as the EA player in our campaign found tonight, the light cruiser is better than a prefect due to being precise, having all round AP firepower and a GEG2 which meant his fighters did nothing. compared to the field day they would have against prefects.
you cannot boil ships down to pure maths, there situation, fleet conmposition, enemy fleet composition.
we know which are the best, we see them time and again. and am sure tank would put his olympus gunships up a bit higher on the list. 6AD beam? nasty.
You're right, it's impossible to assign a value to ships that has grounding in pure fact and therefore having any sort of scale should always be based solely upon opinion and gut feeling :roll:

You say the White Star will get caned by a Nova....well even on that specific point I disagree 100% as I think it would be the other way around and anyway, White Stars seem to be coming out in a number of players' top 5 ship lists so they can't be that bad.

The bottom line is that you can actually boil ships down to pure maths, so long as you take enough factors into account. From this position you will have to tweak things to a degree but as a baseline it can be 90% accurate.
 
Well in all honesty ANY Whitestar that dies to a Nova should be mocked profusely. It has nothing to do with dice, the WS beam OUTRANGES THE NOVAS GUNS. Combined with the Novas slow speed and the WS maneuverabily and you really should NEVER let them fire at you. The novas best anti WS weapon is actually its fighter compliment.

As for the maths vs gut feeling argument, I disagree that statistical analysis is totally useless but it only really holds up for comparing ships that work in similar ways (ie comparing the Primus to the Tinashi or the Vorlon light cruiser). Trying to compare ships with radically different playstyles like the Nova and WS doesnt work that well generally.

The trouble with mathematical modelling is it relies on things being predictable. When you start factoring in things like possible tactics that players can use you put the human equasion into the game. Humans are not good at being predictable in general ;)

The mathematical analyisis in the original post will generally hold up reasonably well if we assume all the ships in question sit within all their weapons range boresighted on each other (or broadsided or whatever with their fighters stitting on the enemy base, not moving and slugging away at each other). But that is NOT what happens in most ACTA games (unless both players, frankly, really, REALLY suck :P)
 
WS versus nova:

WS sits at range 18 and fires its beam, geting probably a hit.
next turn WS has to go 7.5" towards nova before any turns, to get out of range of the nova it mans not facing it with its own weapons and this is if WS wins init, if its doesnt nova will chase and possibly get into range for a retalitory strike.

so beating a nova with a WS is not as easy as it sounds, yes you have speed and range, but speed kills.
 
katadder said:
WS versus nova:

WS sits at range 18 and fires its beam, geting probably a hit.
next turn WS has to go 7.5" towards nova before any turns, to get out of range of the nova it mans not facing it with its own weapons and this is if WS wins init, if its doesnt nova will chase and possibly get into range for a retalitory strike.

so beating a nova with a WS is not as easy as it sounds, yes you have speed and range, but speed kills.
If it's a 1 vs 1, the ISA will most likely win initiative, so the WS can All Stop if the Nova stays out of range, or APTE past if he moves into range.
 
why will they? +1 versus +2. not much in it there. from 18" the WS could stay at 0.5 inches away but the nova for me would all stop and go forward half an inch. then you have the problems of the fighters incoming. 4v1, which by your the ISA will more likely win init means the fighters will more likely win the dogfight (+5v+4).
and like i said, what happens when you dont win init? you cant all stop as thats signs you death, so you can try keep guns on, or try and flee.
 
katadder said:
why will they? +1 versus +2
+2 if you're 3rd Age, +0 if you're Early Years.

So against Early you'll win 70% of the time; against 3rd Age, 60%.

Even if the WS loses init, it would only get shot at once. After that turn it could go past and come back for another run, staying out of range the first turn, then maybe getting shot at the next turn. So the WS would get twice as many shots as the Nova.
 
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