Armour versus No-armour Barbarians/Fighters

[High Lord Dee]

I am getting a group started up and they are really excited. The biggest dilema in character creation seems to be in creating a Conan like barbarian or a Nordheimer tank. Here is a request:

Could you come up with an example barbarian and an example fighter - so both 6th level - with typical gear so we can see the difference in combat between parry, dodge, and wearing armor (whatever you think would be normal for a 6th level fighter) and then give an example of a melee round where say a 15 is rolled or whatever. I'm still unclear of how all of those pieces go together (trying to see about armor or not).

I will also go through the excercis but would like a comparision to check my math. The variable would be feats so you can either add them in and list them or omit them and I can allocate them.

Thanks in advance!!!

HLD

 

[geordiekimbo]

i'll see what i can do when i get three hours free

 

[geordiekimbo]

Ok I’ve done the characters with the following stats, allocating feats as seen fit to create reasonable representations of the classes in question (IMO). Using the Conan Pocket Book (in case that makes a difference)

Base Stats
18,16,16,15,13,11

The Barbarian Character I’m going to make a Cimmerian (favoured class)
The Soldier Character I’m going to make a Bossonian (favoured class)

Due to being level 6 in the class in question each character has 3 feats for class, 2 feats for favoured class, one ability increase and one increase in all abilities*, which are figured into the stats given below.


Barbarian Stats
Str (+2racial) 22* (+6)
Dex 17 (+3)
Con 17 (+3)
Int (-2racial) 12 (+1)
Wis 12 (+1)
Cha 16 (+3)

Hit Points 51

+1 will save (racial and barbarian Fearlessness)
+2 bonus to climb
+2 to checks for hide listen move silently survival and spot (temperate or cold hills and mountains)
-2 diplomacy and verbal bluff checks

Abilities
Proficient with Simple, Martial weapons. Two weapon combat, light, medium armour and shields.
Bite Sword
Crimson Mist 1/day
Versatility (-2)
Track
Trap Sense (+2)
Uncanny Dodge
Mobility

Attacks +12/+7 (with 2wpns +13/+8broadsword +13/+8shortsword)
Dodge 17
Parry 18

Saves
Fort +5
Reflex +5
Will +3
Initiative +8

Feats (5- 3level+2bonus)
Improved Two Weapon Combat
Power Attack
Cleave
Weapon Focus (broadsword) +1TH
Weapon Focus (shortsword) +1 TH

Equipment
Mail Hauberk (max Dex+3 DR 6)
Steel Cap (+1 DR)
Broadsword
Shortsword



Soldier Stats
Str 20* (+5)
Dex 17 (+3)
Con 16 (+3)
Int 17 (+3)
Wis 14 (+2)
Cha 12 (+1)

Hit Points 51

Abilities
Proficient with all simple, martial weapons, light , medium and heavy armour, all shields and two weapon fighting.
+1 TH bossonian longbow
+2 Defense when fighting defensively or using total defense action
Exotic weapon prof. Bossonian longbow.
Formation combat (who cares he’s by himself)
4 Bonus feats. Marked with a * in the list below.

Attacks +11/+6 or +12/+7 broadsword (2 wpns +8/+3broadsword +8shield)
Dodge 16
Parry 24

Saves
Fort +5
Ref +4
Will +2
Initiative +11

Feats (9- 3level+2bonus+4class)
Quick Draw
Point Blank Shot
Combat Expertise
Improved Trip*
Improved Initiative*
Lightning Reflexes*
Parry*
Weapon Focus (Broadsword)
Weapon Specialisation (Broadsword)

Equipment
Mail Hauberk (max Dex+3 DR 6)
Steel Cap (+1 DR)
Broadsword
Large Shield (+4 shield bonus)

For purposes of combat let us say that no character has a readied weapon, although each is wearing his armour and the soldier is carrying his shield on his hand. The characters are within reach of each other.

 

[geordiekimbo]

This is my attempt at a combat between these two combatants. For speed of combat each Combatant rolls 15 for everything (as instructed). All other rolls will be average for everything else (10 for d20, 3 for d6 etc). All fractions are to be rounded down.

Round one
Initiative
Barb 23
Sold 26
Result Soldier goes first.

Actions
Soldier fast draws broadsword (free action)
Soldier attacks with broadsword twice.
27 attack roll vs dodge 17. HIT. Dmg inflicted 12, dmg taken 9
22 attack roll vs dodge 17. HIT. Dmg inflicted 12, dmg taken 9
Barbarian is now on 33 Hit Points

Barbarian draws broadsword and shortsword. And attacks with broadsword.
28 broadsword attack roll vs parry 25. HIT. Dmg inflicted 11, dmg taken 8
Soldier is now on 43 Hit Points

Round Two

Initiative
Barb 23
Sold 26
Result Soldier goes first.

Actions
Soldier attacks using full attack
27 attack roll vs dodge 17. HIT. Dmg inflicted 12, dmg taken 9
22 attack roll vs dodge 17. HIT. Dmg inflicted 12, dmg taken 9
Barbarian is now on 15 Hit Points

Barbarian attacks using full attack with both weapons
28 broadsword attack roll vs parry 25. HIT. Dmg inflicted 11, dmg taken 8
23 attack roll vs parry 25. PARRIED
28 shortsword attack roll vs parry 25. HIT. Dmg inflicted 10, dmg taken 7
23 attack roll vs parry 25. PARRIED
Soldier is now on 28 Hit Points

Round Three

Initiative
Barb 23
Sold 26
Result Soldier goes first.

Soldier attacks using full attack
27 attack roll vs dodge 17. HIT. Dmg inflicted 12, dmg taken 9
22 attack roll vs dodge 17. HIT. Dmg inflicted 12, dmg taken 9
Barbarian is now on -3 Hit Points.

Barbarian is unconscious and stabilises. Knowing that barbarians are a hardy lot and not wanting the barbarian to return to extract revenge, the Soldier attempts a coup de grace.

Damage inflicted 15, dmg taken 12
Fortitude save 20 vs 12 so Barbarian passes fortitude save
Barbarian is now on -15 Hit Points. Barbarian dies.

The Barbarian uses a fate point to be left for dead (assuming the soldier didn't hit him another 3 times) recovers, goes up a couple of levels, finds the soldier, creeps into his tavern room and attacks him the soldier as hes getting out of bed. Barbarian wins. Soldier uses a fate point to be left for dead...etc etc.

Its all quite relative. Very often equally matched opponents could very well fight to a standstill. It depends on a number of factors..Who has ready weapons, who goes first, who is better at parrying. If the soldier had better armour it would last longer - if the barbarian had bigger weapons; such as a greatsword, forgoing the improved two weapon combat to get the proficiency to use it - If the soldier had a bossonian bow to shoot the barbarian a couple of times before they both got into hand to hand.. Very relative.

 

[Foxworthy]

Question in the first round why didn't you have the Barbarian attack? You can draw weapons as a move action. So he was free to take a swipe with the broadsword that round.

 

[geordiekimbo]

Question in the first round why didn't you have the Barbarian attack? You can draw weapons as a move action. So he was free to take a swipe with the broadsword that round.

I was looking at that and you're right I missed the Barbarians first attack. The text previously has been altered to reflect this. Thanks

 

[urdinaran]

Not a huge point, but, I think your calculations of their Initiative modifiers is wrong. It should be:

Base REF save + DEX + misc (feats, etc.)

As a rule, a PCs Initiative mod should be equal or higher than their total Ref save, usually.

 

[geordiekimbo]

Base REF save + DEX + misc (feats, etc.)

Thanks. Changes to characters and combat have been made. Did not change outcome.

 

[High Lord Dee]

Thanks geordiekimbo,

It is exactly as I am looking for. Will compare some notes soon.

HLD

 

[argo]

Disclaimer: generally these sorts of match-ups are only of limited use, most campaigns don't involve arena-combat. They are generally most instructive not for proving who is "better" but for demonstrating different builds.

To whit: the "Tank" vs the "War Hulk"

Both characters are built on a 28 point buy

Tank Hyperborean Sdl 6
Str: 16 (15 + 1 all)
Dex: 11 (10 +1 all)
Con: 20 (16 +2 race +1 4th +1 all)
Int: 11 (10 +1 all)
Wis: 14 (13 +1 all)
Cha: 8 (9 -2 race +1 all)

HP: 6d10 + 30 (con) + 6 (Toughness) = 71 HP

Feats: 3 character + 2 favored class + 4 Sdl = 9
Toughness
W Focus Broadsword
W Spec Broadsowrd
Parry
Power Attack
Cleave
Improved Sunder
Greater Sunder
Iron Will

Abilities:
Formation Combat [Heavy Infantry]

Skills:
Not A Lot

Equipment:
Broadsword, Large Shield, Mail Hauberk and Brigandine Coat, Steel Cap

Attack: Broadsword +10/+5 melee (1d10+5, 19/x2, AP 6)
Grap +9
DV: Parry 22
DV: Dodge vs ranged 17
DV: Dodge vs melee 13
DR: 10 (9 mail hauberk/brigandine + 1 steel cap)

Saves: Fort +10, Ref +2, Will +6

Init +2
Speed: 25 ft

--------------------------------------------------------

War Hulk Cimmerian Barb 6
Str: 18 (15 +2 race +1 all)
Dex: 16 (14 +1 4th +1 all)
Con: 15 (14 +1 all)
Int: 13 (14 -2 race +1 all)
Wis: 9 (8 +1 all)
Cha: 11 (10 +1 all)

HP: 6d10 + 12 = 47

Feats: 3 character + 2 favored = 5
Power Attack
Cleave
Fleet-Footed
Improved Unarmed Strike
Improved Grapple

Abilities:
Track [bonus feat]
Fearless
Versatility (-2)
Bite Sword
Crimson mist
Trap Sense +2
Endurance
Uncanny Dodge
Mobility
Diehard

Skills:
A Whole Lot More than the soldier

Equipment:
Bill, Mail Shirt, Steel Cap

Attack: Bill +10/+5 melee (2d8+6, 20/x3, AP10)
Grap +14
DV: Parry 16
DV: Dodge vs ranged 17
DV: Dodge vs melee 17
DR: 6 (5 mail shirt + 1 steel cap)

Saves: Fort +7, Ref +8, Will +2 (+4 vs fear)

Init +8
Speed 40 ft


Ill be back with a showcase combat

 

[argo]

Sample Combat

As requested I shall assume everybody rolls 15 for all attack rolls (which really makes this a straight slug-fest as opposed to a dynamic combat) however I shall assume pure average for everything else.

Note that both characters penetrate the other's armor (Tank AP 6 vs DR 6 and War Hulk AP 10 vs DR 10)

Init
War Hulk 18
Tank 12
not even close, the War Hulk goes first

Round 1
War Hulk Charges in (he has a 80' charge so he should be able to do this in most combats) and knowing his opponent is flat footed he uses full PA
Attack: 10 +2 -6 = +6 -> roll 21 vs parry 14 HIT
Damage: 8 + 6 + 12 - 5 = 21
The
War Hulk forces a massive damage save!
Save: Fort +10 -> roll 20 vs DC 20
Tank barely makes the save!
Tank's HP: 71 - 21 = 50

Tank stands his ground and makes a full attack with his broadsword, the War Hulk is at -2 DV because of the charge so the
Tank decides to PA for 4 (he uses the formula PA = 1 for each itterative attack + value of W Focus feats + any bonus from circumstances)
Attack: 10 - 4 = +6 -> roll 21 vs dodge 15 HIT
Damage: 5 + 5 + 4 - 3 = 11
Attack: 5 - 4 = +1 -> roll 16 vs dodge 15 HIT
Damage: 5 + 5 + 4 -3 = 11
War Hulk's HP: 47 - 22 = 25

(aside: remember what I said about the assumption of rolling 15's for attack rolls? really turns this into a slug fest)


Round 2
War Hulk sees that his opponent won't go down easy. He decides to try a more cautious approach and will only PA for 3 this round
Attack: 10 - 3 = +7 -> roll 22 vs parry 22 just barely a HIT
Damage: 8 + 6 + 6 - 5 = 15
Tank's HP: 50 - 15 = 35
War Hulk sees that his opponent is not going down easy, he decides to pull back and get some breathing space so he uses his move action to put distance between him and the guy in the armor. This movement provokes an AoO however War Hulk gets +4 to DV from his Mobility and Tank still has the penalty to hit from his PA last round
AoO: 10 - 4 = +6 -> roll 21 vs dodge 21
Actually ... I'm going to pretent the Tank rolls a 14 instead just to keep this thing going :wink:

So now War Hulk is 40 ft away from Tank. Tank only has a 25 ft move and no range weapons (he sucks at ranged combat anyway) so he has a tough choice here. He decides that he is feeling prety cofident though so he will press his advantage and charge (50 ft charge) this gives him +2 attack and -2 DV.
However, he also decides that that Bill is starting to get on his nerves, he knows he can't finish this in one hit so he will take it out instead of suffering more hits from it. Tank will use his Greater Sunder feat and PA for full 6 points.
Sunder Attack: 10 + 2 (charge) + 4 (Improved Sunder) - 6 (PA) = 10 -> opposed roll 25
Sunder Opposed Attack: 10 - 3 (PA) = +7 -> opposed roll 22
Tank lands a solid blow on the haft of the Bill
Damage: 5 + 5 + 6 = 16
The Bill has hardness 7 (so 16 - 7 = 9) and 10 HP: 10 - 9 = 1
But I gave the War Hulk a freebie with the AoO so here I'm gonna pretend that the Tank rolled a 6 for damage, the Bill shatters into a million pieces! :shock:
And now Tank's Greater Sunder comes into play, he gets to make a free attack against War Hulk as though he had not just used his attack for the sunder attempt
Attack: 10 +2 -6 = 6 -> roll 21 vs dodge 17 a clean HIT
Damage: 5 + 5 + 6 = 16
War Hulk's HP: 25 - 16 = 9

Round 3
War Hulk briefly considers just going to town with the broken head of his bill (aside: as GM I would rule it to be an improvised Battleaxe, and with the Versatility ability that's not such a bad deal) but he has observed that his opponent is not too light on his feet, so he decides to take advantage of that weakness and target the guy's poor DV. A grapple!
Touch Attack: 10 -> roll 25 vs dodge 13 an easy HIT
Grapple Check: +14 -> roll 15 +14 = 29
Opposed Grapple: +9 -> roll 15 +9 = 24
Damage: 2 + 4 AP0 the Tank's armor stops this unless you use the House Rule that damage from a grapple bypasses armor ... and I do 8)
Tank's HP 35 - 6 = 29
War Hulk easily catches Tank in his vice-like grip. He now attempts to pin the Tank
Grapple check: +9 (itterative grapples take the itterative penalty) -> roll 24
Opposed Grapple: +9 (opposed grapple checks are always at full BAB) -> roll 24
Tank strugles mightly and manages to avoid being pinned


At this point Tank is prety much boned. So long as we stick with the rule of "both sides always roll a 15" he can't break out of the grapple (grapples hinge on lucky/unlucky opposed rolls to give them that dramatic see-saw flavor)


Anyway, I think thats enough for now. Hope that helps.

 

[Trodax]

War Hulk Charges in (he has a 80' charge so he should be able to do this in most combats) and knowing his opponent is flat footed he uses full PA
Attack: 10 +2 -6 = +6 -> roll 21 vs parry 14 HIT

Question: Do you get to use a shield bonus to parry when flat-footed? I've always thought that you always just get the standard DV 10, but you might be right (don't have the books with me at the moment). That sure would add to the usefulness of carrying a shield.

War Hulk easily catches Tank in his vice-like grip. He now attempts to pin the Tank

Wouldn't trying to pin your opponent have to wait until the next round? IOW, grappling your opponent takes one turn, he then gets a chance to break the grapple (or damage you, or pin you, or whatever) and then, when your turn comes up again, you can take one of the grapple actions against him (such as trying to pin him).

 

[geordiekimbo]

Actually ... I'm going to pretent the Tank rolls a 14 instead just to keep this thing going Wink

You wanted the barbarian to win then? It kinda makes the entire combat worthless, if you suddenly decide in a sample combat to have a character roll a 14 because you want it to.

The extra bonus for the soldier is a bit pointless in comparison to what the barbarian got out of it. A hit that causes damage versus a broken weapon..hmm.

Oh and I believe the Soldier gets an Attack of Opportunity against the Barbarian when he grapples.

(Edited to add the )

 

[VincentDarlage]

Oh and the Soldier gets an Attack of Opportunity against the Barbarian when he grapples.

Why? The barbarian has Improved Grapple.

 

[urdinaran]

The barbarian has Improved Grapple

 

[geordiekimbo]

Why? The barbarian has Improved Grapple.

So he does, I missed that. Moot point really. The soldier should have won.

(Edited to add quote.)

 

[urdinaran]

It's all a moot point really, you can't "take 15" on attack rolls. Fudging the numbers was a way to prolong the combat to show more examples.

 

[Evil_Trevor]

It's all rather pointless since it doesn't answer the two most important questions you may have

Which is the toughest ?

Well you need to try them against an array of opponants (Finesse fighters, Sneak attack merchants,spellcasting villans) and figure in things like who gets surprised most it is likley that the Barbarian will have better listen and spot rolls and no penelty to move silently. Heavy Armour also has other penelties, It costs a fortune to keep getting it repaired, you can't live in it so if the trouble kicks off when your not wearing it you have no DR and It's heavy. Also since it's valuable it might just get stolen.....

Which is the one you want to play ?
Depends a lot on what sort of game your GM runs and the group you are with I wouldn't fancy the soliders chances in the 'Tales of the black Kingdoms' since it would be to hot to wear all the armour once you got into the desert.

With the Glove on the other foot however, The Barbarian is ill suited to city based adventures where tact and diplomacy are required. Hopless if the adventure involves much reading and writing, deciphering scrolls and the like.

The bottom line is that a small advantage in slug-fest combat will only matter if all you do is straight combat which is ok for a night or two but gets a bit dull after that. What you need is a well rounded character that you can play in several sessions who will lose armour, weapons at times and still be worth playing.

 

[argo]

War Hulk Charges in (he has a 80' charge so he should be able to do this in most combats) and knowing his opponent is flat footed he uses full PA
Attack: 10 +2 -6 = +6 -> roll 21 vs parry 14 HIT

Question: Do you get to use a shield bonus to parry when flat-footed? I've always thought that you always just get the standard DV 10, but you might be right (don't have the books with me at the moment). That sure would add to the usefulness of carrying a shield.

That is an old question from waaaay back that AFAIK was never given an official answer. I play it that way. I mean, its not like sword 'n board is particularly overpowered anyway.

War Hulk easily catches Tank in his vice-like grip. He now attempts to pin the Tank

Wouldn't trying to pin your opponent have to wait until the next round? IOW, grappling your opponent takes one turn, he then gets a chance to break the grapple (or damage you, or pin you, or whatever) and then, when your turn comes up again, you can take one of the grapple actions against him (such as trying to pin him).

Each of the grapple actions takes the place of an itterative melee attack, the War Hulk gets two attacks in a full attack so he can start a grapple and attempt to pin in the same round. Note that the "attacker" in a grapple makes his grapple checks at sucessevely lower BAB as shown in my example while the "defender" makes all of his grapple checks at full BAB. Just remember that "attacker" and "defender" are relative. On the next round the Tank could attempt to break free twice using grapple checks of +9 and +4 while the War Hulk would "defend" against both with grapple checks of +14.

Hope that helps.

 

[argo]

It's all rather pointless since it doesn't answer the two most important questions you may have

Yeah, like I said these "arena combat" things are of limited use. However they do give you a good feel for the general build

War Hulk strengths:
Can force massive damage saves (espically with a first round PA as demonstrated)
Free to use most any equipment load-out (though he has a hard time with DR without a high-AP weapon like a Bill)
Can use ranged combat when needed
High move (combined with big-PA hits this allows him to take advantage of hit-and-run tacticts but it also allows him to flee from slower foes)
Good Init (combined with Uncanny Dodge this saves him from a lot of pain)
Just generally a well-rounded adventurer with skills and special abilities

War Hulk weaknesses:
A little "soft" for a front-line combatant, DV and DR are just a bit above average
Only has one "trick" - grapple (which is a good trick, but has serious downsides)
Will save sucks


Tank strengths:
High DV deters power attacks and itterative attacks
High DR reduces damage
Combine the previous two with his massive HP and you get a character with significant combat endurance -> being the last man standing can be a great asset to the party
If needed he can loose the armor and keep the shield and still have better than average defense
If needed he can loose the sheild, take a two handed weapon (like a Bill) and keep the armor and be a battelfield jugernaut
Has a "trick" with few downsides, and will gain many more "tricks" as he levels.
Good Will save (for a warrior at least)

Tank weaknesses:
Heavily dependent on access to specific equipment (espically the boradsword)
Slow, both movement and Init
Few skills means less to do out of combat
Not likely to provoke massive damage saves in sword 'n board mode

Note: if you wanted more skills you could switch Int and Wis and then swap out Iron Will for a skill-feat.


I do think its interesting to note that when they were trading full-round attacks the two builds inflicted comperable damage-per-round on each other. That says something I think.

Later.