Arch Sorcery

Dal Thrax

Mongoose
While the flavor text says sorcery is weak but versatile the actually effects seem pretty strong. Before posting some effects a couple observations:

While many Sorcery spells will have a low magnitude, countermagic is only on the civilized spell list. The countermagic rules are unclear on two points. First can you reactively cast countermagic to benefit another character? Secondly if a spell effecting multiple targets is countered by one target does it fail to all targets?

It takes a minimum of 3 CAs to get a multi target Sorcery spell off (1 base + 1 range +1 targets). By the time three consecutive CAs have ticked past the combat is probably well under way if not on its way to wrapping up. Sorcery allows to either 1. save a party that is in trouble or 2. mop up the opposition saving the need to run another round of combat.

The rules are unclear if difficulty and haste modifiers (pg. 31) apply to spell casting. If so it's possible to generate up to a +60% skill modifier by taking extra time and "ritually" casting a spell.

Grimoire rules are a bit of a mess. At one point the main rulebook says a starting Grimoire, for a cult not written up elsewhere, has no more than four spells. The example under how Sorcery works gives the True Malkioni grimoire as having over a dozen spells and Bardan's Book having six. Um yeah, can anybody give me a good reason why a cult with the magic rune isn't going to have a packed grimoire...

Assuming a point buy system for characteristics Int 16, Pow 15 isn't out of the question. This gives a likely starting Sorcery score of 72 (16*2 + 30 +10), and a starting manipulation score of around 61 (15 + 16 + 30).

Ok those points aside here are some fairly powerful effects a character can pull off right out of the gate.

Flying Chariot
7 Manipulation Points (+2 targets, +5 Duration)
3 Magic Points
30 CAs to cast (Ritual Cast taking 10x normal time)
Casting Bonus: + 60%

Casts Fly on a light chariot and two horses. The extra casting time is to raise effective skill to handle the high Siz of the horses. The sorcerer then rides the chariot. Simply casting fly would be more effective but sometimes you want to make a point.

Incantation of the Heros Reborn
6 Manipulation points (+3 Targets, +3 Combine)
6 Magic Points (3 manipulations + 3 extra spells)
3 CA's to cast
Casting Bonus: -30%

This spell is best cast either 1: with extra time or 2: under the influence of a +30% bonus fate spell. This spell combines
Damage Str
Damage Resistance
Enhance Dex
Enhance Siz

This spell gives a +16 Bonus (72% rounded up to 80, divided by ten and multiplied by two) to Siz, Str, and Dex and bounces any attack doing less than 8 points of damage. The DR spell rules are unclear it seems that a bounced attack "has no effect" do not past go, go not collect any CMs.

This spell gives the recipients a minimum of one extra CA. Most likely at least a 1d10 if not 1d12 damage bonus. Adds +16% to melee skills, +32% to ranged skill and increases hit point by three bands and increases strike rank by +11.

Speed
1 Manipulation point (+1 Combine)
3 Magic Points
2 CA's to cast
Casting Bonus: -10%

Combines Enhance Dex and Enhance Int. This gives the caster a minimum of two more combat actions (plus either an extra +28% or +32% to sorcery depending on how you rule about modifiers and an extra +14 or +16% to manipulation). Best uses to this spell, cast it early in combat then use the extra CA's to cast something nasty later when nobody has any remaining CAs to counterspell.

Spirit Blast
This is simply a decrease POW spell cast in spirit combat. This nukes 16 POW/HPs from the spirit but insures that you don't bring it under 1 POW / HP (you'll have to attack for that but you cant' destroy the spirit with the spell either). I suspect many spirit cults teach some Sorcery just for access to this spell (which would be useful even at lower levels).

Into the Pit
3 Manipulation point (+1 Combine, +1 Range)
4 Magic Points
3 CA's to cast
Casting Bonus: -10%

This combines Animate (earth) and Holdfast. Somewhat wonky this spell animates the ground under the target to swallow it and holdfasts the ground to the target. May not actually be a legal spell.

Shaping Metal
2 Manipulation point (+1 Combine)
3 Magic Points
2 CA's to cast
Casting Bonus: -10%

Casts form/set (metal) and animate (metal) on a piece of metal. Basically this is a coolness effect of causing metal to flow into the desired shape without the character actually having to work it (might give some bonuses depending on the GM). On the other hand this could not only melt an opponents arms and armor off them but leave the hostile fighting a T2 like mass of liquid metal.

Fly
Any version of this cast on an opponent really. As the movement is directed by the sorcerer you can simply pin a hostile facing up towards the roof/sky to take him/her out of the fight. Over fun uses of this spell involve dropping enemies, swinging them around, and holding them upside down until the pass out.

Shapechange

Normal human is Siz 12. A newt is size 1. That's a 23 size point transformation. Yeah it requires a 70% casting skill to pull it off but you can change somebody into a newt (who will, eventually, get better).

Holdfast
Holdfasting somebody to the ground if pretty clear, what I wonder is, is this spell permanent? I get the feeling that a sorcerer with both holdfast and fly has the tools needed to cause no end of mischief.
 
Grimoire rules are a bit of a mess. At one point the main rulebook says a starting Grimoire, for a cult not written up elsewhere, has no more than four spells. The example under how Sorcery works gives the True Malkioni grimoire as having over a dozen spells and Bardan's Book having six. Um yeah, can anybody give me a good reason why a cult with the magic rune isn't going to have a packed grimoire...

I'll answer this one quickly; your other queries will take more time.

The True Malkioni Grimoire draws directly on the Abiding Book of the God Learners which contains ALL the spells found in the Sorcery chapter.

Bardan's Book is a focused grimoire drawn together by that particular order.

Having the Magic Rune doesn't guarantee you a 'packed grimoire'. It does establish that order or cult's relationship with the nature of magic, but it doesn't automatically grant access to dozens of spells.

And sorcerers can, often quite easily, be members of multiple schools and orders thereby gaining access to different grimoires in their entirety. In the True Malkioni Church, for instance, you find a lot of multiple memberships.

'Cults of Glorantha' will, I hope, make this clearer.
 
I admit that I didn't make that point very well. What I was trying to say is that as "accumulate magical knowledge" seems a viable and setting appropriate objective for a cult. Further the cult gains clear benefits from achieving this objective. It seems reasonable to expected such a cult to have an expanded Grimoire. This seems especially likely as sorcerer is an available default profession (see an an example the Order of Hermes in Atlas Games, Ars Magica game for an example of a cult of professional sorcerers). On the other hand I was also pointing out that Sorcery, unlike other types of magic, should get most of it's spells up front unless a role playing restriction is added to this accumulation of spells.

In particular, and I'll give you that I have zero knowledge of the default Runequest setting I was picturing a cult with Magic, Spirit and Moon runes. Each year a new spell is revealed on the cults holy megalith as the moon makes its 17 year cycle (17 spells total though a PC is unlikely to have more than 12 or 13 at age 20. What age does training in a cult start at in Ruenquest? I'm assuming seven based on the age apprenticeship starts in Atlas's Ars Magica). Possibly the cult would have access to a second Grimoire that would require a hero quest in the spirit world to access (probably six spells, possibly also bestowing a fetch or other form of spirit ally on the questor as part of the journey). That seems to be an acceptable Grimoire setup according to example given in the Sorcery rules and horribly abusive in according to the default rules.
 
Dal Thrax said:
It takes a minimum of 3 CAs to get a multi target Sorcery spell off (1 base + 1 range +1 targets).

It is actually 2 CA, the rules state 1 per manipulation, with a minimum of 1 if you don't use any manipulation
 
Your right. RuneQuest II rules are really intricate and crunchy. I'm not sure I like that quicker casting time though. With the longer time a sorcerer can get off a crushing spell, but only after the other players have gotten a chance to show off the cool things they can do.
 
At last - some time to reply to your sorcery questions!

While the flavor text says sorcery is weak but versatile the actually effects seem pretty strong. Before posting some effects a couple observations:

Without manipulation, sorcery is relatively weak compared with Divine and Spirit magic. Manipulation is the key to its power.

While many Sorcery spells will have a low magnitude, countermagic is only on the civilized spell list. The countermagic rules are unclear on two points. First can you reactively cast countermagic to benefit another character? Secondly if a spell effecting multiple targets is countered by one target does it fail to all targets?

Yes, you can cast it reactively to benefit someone else. However, if a spell affects multiple Countermagicked targets, each target needs to be treated individually.

It takes a minimum of 3 CAs to get a multi target Sorcery spell off (1 base + 1 range +1 targets). By the time three consecutive CAs have ticked past the combat is probably well under way if not on its way to wrapping up. Sorcery allows to either 1. save a party that is in trouble or 2. mop up the opposition saving the need to run another round of combat
.

Good sorcerers will start preparing before a combat gets underway. Once into a melee, you're right - the fight could be over before the spell activates. This is down to players to manage as a tactical option.

The rules are unclear if difficulty and haste modifiers (pg. 31) apply to spell casting. If so it's possible to generate up to a +60% skill modifier by taking extra time and "ritually" casting a spell.

Yes they do. Any magical skill is a skill like any other, so the D&H mods apply equally. See again the point on being tactical with spells. If you suspect a combat is brewing, and say to the GM, 'Okay, I'm going to start my Wrack chant going whilst those two are arguing... really taking my time on it...' then yep, you'll get the mod for it.

Grimoire rules are a bit of a mess. At one point the main rulebook says a starting Grimoire, for a cult not written up elsewhere, has no more than four spells. The example under how Sorcery works gives the True Malkioni grimoire as having over a dozen spells and Bardan's Book having six. Um yeah, can anybody give me a good reason why a cult with the magic rune isn't going to have a packed grimoire...

I've tackled this already, but something else to remember. Not all grimoires, Gloranthan or not, will have equal numbers of spells or balanced effects. Some will be uber books of destructive sorcery; others sacred scrolls with two or three spells reflecting the order's nature. If you want to create balanced grimoires for your game then please do - whatever works best for you - but not all grimoires are equal.

BTW, I loved the idea you came up with about the spells appearing on the stones on the holy day. An excellent, evocative way of introducing new magic as a revealed truth. Really, really nice!

Assuming a point buy system for characteristics Int 16, Pow 15 isn't out of the question. This gives a likely starting Sorcery score of 72 (16*2 + 30 +10), and a starting manipulation score of around 61 (15 + 16 + 30).

Yep. You can get a competent sorcerer straight out of the box with RQII. It was designed this way.

Ok those points aside here are some fairly powerful effects a character can pull off right out of the gate.

Again, some nice, creative uses of sorcery showing its flexibility and power.

Overall you have to consider how sorcery balances against the other Higher Magical paths. Divine magicians have access to spells with potentially high base magnitudes and effects, depending on the depth of the pact. Spirit magicians can summon nasty spirits that can yank you onto the spirit plane and flay your soul mercilessly and there's bugger-all you can do about it if you don't have some form of spirit protection.

Sorcery, by contrast, is designed to reflect those hermetic wizards, sitting in towers, watching a foe with Project Sight from several miles away and blasting them with a Wrack spell because they can. Its also there to support the more thoughtful battlefield mage who uses his magic judiciously, tactically and in response to rapidly unfolding situations. Its power really is in its flexibility and a thoughtful sorcerer is a truly formidable force - which he needs to be when you have Divine magicians effectively channelling the power of their gods, or high shaman sending a Disease Spirit to get medieval on your arse... :-)
 
Loz said:
At last - some time to reply to your sorcery questions!

Yes, you can cast it reactively to benefit someone else. However, if a spell affects multiple Countermagicked targets, each target needs to be treated individually.

Does a reactive casting change the CA cost? If not it would seem the best a Common Countermagic spell can do is counter a magnitude 2 income spell (three or more would put it over the countermagic limit). Also neutralize magic would take more than one CA to cast for Targets + Range, effectively limiting the spell to the sorcerer and as many targets as he or she can quickly grab (most likely one additional).

Yes they do. Any magical skill is a skill like any other, so the D&H mods apply equally. See again the point on being tactical with spells. If you suspect a combat is brewing, and say to the GM, 'Okay, I'm going to start my Wrack chant going whilst those two are arguing... really taking my time on it...' then yep, you'll get the mod for it.

So am I reading it right that casting spell can be adjusted by taking more time (because it is rolled) but manipulation can't? What about using the assistance rules to add to a main casters manipulation score? I'm seeing the potential for some fairly large ritual castings here (whether or not that's unbalancing, I'm not quite sure).

BTW, I loved the idea you came up with about the spells appearing on the stones on the holy day. An excellent, evocative way of introducing new magic as a revealed truth. Really, really nice!

Thanks. I'm stealing the idea from a Hopi site in the Southwest where the moon makes a line covering a different number of spirals on a sacred circle drawn into the wall depending on where it is in its 17 year cycle (only works on one full moon though, think it's the one closest to the summer solstice but I could be wrong).

Overall you have to consider how sorcery balances against the other Higher Magical paths. Divine magicians have access to spells with potentially high base magnitudes and effects, depending on the depth of the pact. Spirit magicians can summon nasty spirits that can yank you onto the spirit plane and flay your soul mercilessly and there's bugger-all you can do about it if you don't have some form of spirit protection.

I think the real issue is cult rank balance:

A starting Sorcerer gets access to a fairly useful Grimoire.
A starting Diving Magician, must return to a temple or shrine after casting spells.
A starting Spirit Magician, can't actually talk to spirits yet.

These issues could probably be resolved by advancing the Shaman and Priest professions one cult rank.

Also there's really nothing forcing an either/or choice between different types of magic. Yes, Divine Magic doesn't mix well with Spirit Magic but there's really nothing stopping a high POW spirit magician from putting a point or two into a diving pact.

Just a quick thought:

Divine + Sorcery = Gnasticism

Divine + Spirit = Tibetan Budism. Alternatively an exorcist.

Spirit + Sorcery = Actually I would think a number of cultures where shamans both deal with spirits and cast spells would fall into this category (this um may actually be the majority of shamanic cultures. Using magic [sorcery buff spells in games terms] to aid the shaman in dealing with spirits seems pretty common).

Diving + Spirit + Sorcery: Zoharism.


Point being if attacks by spirits will PWN your soul, I suspect that a number of esoteric cults may teach spirit combat. After all a sorcerer who's just used a number of MPs is a very tempting target for spirit attack.

From what little I've seen about spirit magic on RPG.Net though, some type of Nomad spirit magician releasing Djinn to physically pummel his or her enemies might be more along the lines of what many players are looking for.
 
Dal Thrax said:
Divine + Spirit = Tibetan Budism.
Nope. Mysticism.

I grant you that some of the more fringe aspects of various rNyingmapa traditions could be modelled in MRQ terms with modified Spirit Magic, but Divine no—that's misunderstanding.
 
Dal Thrax said:
I think the real issue is cult rank balance:

A starting Sorcerer gets access to a fairly useful Grimoire.
A starting Diving Magician, must return to a temple or shrine after casting spells.
A starting Spirit Magician, can't actually talk to spirits yet.

These issues could probably be resolved by advancing the Shaman and Priest professions one cult rank.

I note that in the Skill chapter description of Spirit Walking, it says that a Shaman is "equivalent to Rune Priest" though in the Cults chapter it makes Shaman equivalent to Initiate. I'd follow the Skills chapter, personally. So if you're thinking they're a step down, I don't think they actually are. Anyone with 30% in Spirit Walking can talk to Spirits... and I'd call that a "starting" Spirit Magician.

I do agree with you there is no "Lay Member" equivalent for Sorcery. It's "here's your Grimoire, have fun!" Which I think it ought to be harder than that; something like the previous edition's one-spell-at-a-time Sorcery, at least until you get to the equivalent of Acolyte rank...

Just a quick thought:

Spirit + Sorcery = Actually I would think a number of cultures where shamans both deal with spirits and cast spells would fall into this category (this um may actually be the majority of shamanic cultures. Using magic [sorcery buff spells in games terms] to aid the shaman in dealing with spirits seems pretty common).

For me, this is the classic Demonologist role. Draw the circle, say the name, the demon appears...
 
Oops, sorry! I should say the Cults chapter makes Shaman = Acolyte. I still think that is wrong and the Skills chapter is right, so that:

Common/Lay Member = Spirit Worshipper (no Spirit Walking skill)
Pious Member/Initiate = Spirit Follower (SW ≥30%, can see spirits)
Fervent Member/Acolyte = Devotee (SW ≥50%, can talk to spirits)
Rune Priest = Shaman (SW ≥75%, can project self onto Spirit Plane)
Rune Lord = High Shaman (SW ≥80%, can drag others onto Spirit Plane)

... assuming the other requirements are met, of course.
 
dbhoward said:
I note that in the Skill chapter description of Spirit Walking, it says that a Shaman is "equivalent to Rune Priest" though in the Cults chapter it makes Shaman equivalent to Initiate. I'd follow the Skills chapter, personally. So if you're thinking they're a step down, I don't think they actually are. Anyone with 30% in Spirit Walking can talk to Spirits... and I'd call that a "starting" Spirit Magician.

My understaning is that the game has a five level system
1. Lay member
2. Initiate (1/4 Cha spirits)
3. Acolyte (1/2 Cha)
4. Rune Lord (3/4 Cha)
5. Rune Priest (4/4 Cha)

Starting characters are on level 2, which I think corresponds to can see but not talk.

For me, this is the classic Demonologist role. Draw the circle, say the name, the demon appears...

As I said the Djinn summoner. Neither sorcery or spirit magic have any summoning spells available. Divine magic on the other hand does. Summoning up a demon sounds more like something a follower of a dark god would do tbh.

On Budism - OK but I'm pretty sure I can find an example of Divine + Spirit somewhere between Axum and Bejing (though it might not be Budhist).
 
I thought that the +30 bonus was for Glorantha common magic only (not Pact, Lore, Spirit walking/binding, manipulation or grimoire abilities). This makes for at least a couple months of rookie play before the player is an insanely powerful :twisted: . Also, I think the scarcity of Sorcery spells is what makes this path challenging. You could just make everything available from jump, but I think players would appreciate the spells more if the have to work harder to obtain them (just mho). It also gives the player character that Sorcerous darkside of hearing about power located somewhere and doing anything (and sacrificing anyone- even other PC's!) to obtain the hidden knowledge/special book/unique item/etc. Cult membership will allow access to certain spells, but again, my feeling is that restricting freebies and making the procurement of new spells part of the game challenge is where the fun is at :wink: !
 
You get 250 skill point at start of which you can put up to +30 in any one skill, and an option to add another +10 to any two skills.
 
ThatGuy said:
I thought that the +30 bonus was for Glorantha common magic only (not Pact, Lore, Spirit walking/binding, manipulation or grimoire abilities). This makes for at least a couple months of rookie play before the player is an insanely powerful :twisted:

I was putting 2+2 together from the Spirit Walking skill on pages 46-47, and the Cult ranks as described on page 148. Perhaps I am wrong here, but I figured the "30% in cult skills" requirement ought certainly to include spirit walking? :? (You have to do this kind of thing all the time with these rules, nothing is just spelled out!!!)

ThatGuy said:
Also, I think the scarcity of Sorcery spells is what makes this path challenging. You could just make everything available from jump, but I think players would appreciate the spells more if the have to work harder to obtain them (just mho). It also gives the player character that Sorcerous darkside of hearing about power located somewhere and doing anything (and sacrificing anyone- even other PC's!) to obtain the hidden knowledge/special book/unique item/etc. Cult membership will allow access to certain spells, but again, my feeling is that restricting freebies and making the procurement of new spells part of the game challenge is where the fun is at :wink: !

Oh, I agree completely... giving a sorcerer a Grimoire with a dozen spells is not right; as each *Grimoire* is a separate skill now. Make them search out that ONE spell that they want, from that ONE grimoire!
 
I think Mongoose is trying to modify Runequest to follow the current trend away from having a low level grind. Grinds were ok back in the day but with MMO less players want to replicated one the more annoying aspects of online play in a tabletop game (also many games don't last that long anymore)

Hence in Runequest II you have can start with weapon skills at +60% base (+30%, +10% culture, +10% profession, +10% bonus).

I get the feeling by the mongoose responses to this thread that Grimoire's are met to be a happy medium. You can start with a good number of spell, but expanding your selection is going to take some skill points.

If you advance Shamans and have them starting with a fetch, and give divine casters 1/2 POW in spells that they can roll to regain daily, that balances. (Though there needs to be some rule to prohibit double dipping in say sorcery with a large grimoire, and spirit magic with a fetch).

The bottom line, this game probably does need a specific magic book to deal with these issues.
 
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