Ancient(s)

[kafka]

What I don't get is the tendency to take Marc at his word and believe that the Ancients were a singular race. The precursor races should be just as numerious as minor races are in the contemporary OTU. True, they might not climb as high as the Droyne in their technological progression but each race might take a different tack to technology. What would a civilization entirely based upon biotech or biomechnanical look like?

Furthermore, even civilizations from the ROM would still look quite alien to the contemporary Imperial observer (Shadows, anyone)...For instance, look at how China wow'd the early European explorers with their marvels. I also go back to how the Romantics looking at the ruins that dotted the English landscape and dreamed of a Medieval civilization before the Roman conquest developing the Arthurian myths and the like. When in fact, most of those ruins were abandoned monasteries from the time of Henry VIII.

I like how Rust has incorporated B5's The Rim...countless civilizations who have vanished without a trace should be present in the historical record not just the Ancients...the Ancients is merely the name that Imperial and other Anthropologists would use as a shorthand for precursor race(s). So EDG follow the Romantics and create your own "Ancients".

 

[GypsyComet]

"Vanishing without a trace" and "in the historical record" are somewhat at odds...

 

[alex_greene]

Also, you must take into account that while this version of Traveller is fully licensed by FFE (or otherwise Mongoose would never have been given the license and you wouldn't be reading it) the Mongoose OTU is not your Father's OTU.

Many of the features of the CT OTU may not be counted upon to appear in the exact same form here. Including the CT version of the Ancients.

Consider the McGuffins of Beltstrike - the Artifact the Belters dig up, and the *spoilers* alien base they later encounter. It's not a matter of such devices having an impossible tech level (they do); the device uncovered is a plot device from one of Larry Niven's Known Space stories and *spoiler* if it came from the same race, such a device would have to be a billion and a half years old.

And the thought of encountering one of them would be terrifying, even to the Zhodani.

Also given as examples making an appearance with slightly different function - disintegrators in Mercenary, FGMP-16s, and meson guns. Some tech appears as TL 15 in Scout that would be TL 18 in the OTU Third Imperium. Fusion pistols appear at TL 17 - 19, and the TL 16 plasma rifle, none of which appeared in CT AFAIK.

Already, there are subtle differences. Assume nothing.

 

[EDG]

What I don't get is the tendency to take Marc at his word and believe that the Ancients were a singular race.

Well, that's the OTU for you. IIRC it's pretty explicit that (a) the Ancients were the droyne (or at least, 145 members of the droyne, with the rest persuaded/enslaved by the Godlike Supermutants) and (b) that they were the first intelligent life to make it into space.

So like it or not, that's what happened in the Charted Space setting.

The precursor races should be just as numerious as minor races are in the contemporary OTU.

I agree that they should be more varied in a non-OTU setting, though not quite THAT common. I'd settle for four or five precursor races, going back a couple of billion years. Some may be ultratech, maybe some weren't but still left ruins (most likely on airless rockballs, because anything from that far back left on a habitable world would have been destroyed by tectonism and erosion).

 

[dmccoy1693]

(most likely on airless rockballs,

But then they'd be, at best, shards of tech. Airless worlds tend to get pummelled by meteorites and micro-meteorites and covered by space dust.

 

[kafka]

"Vanishing without a trace" and "in the historical record" are somewhat at odds...

Actually, not entirely implausible...imagine a race whose only trace was the Dreamsong of a primative race who had never left their homeworld but were somehow impacted by the Gods and their narration was contained a thousand stanza saga.

Or that a world that ought not have certain characteristics but does and only now is mother nature catching up and reverting the world to its normal state...lots of ideas I have like these that would correspond with the statements made

What I don't get is the tendency to take Marc at his word and believe that the Ancients were a singular race.

Well, that's the OTU for you. IIRC it's pretty explicit that (a) the Ancients were the droyne (or at least, 145 members of the droyne, with the rest persuaded/enslaved by the Godlike Supermutants) and (b) that they were the first intelligent life to make it into space

So like it or not, that's what happened in the Charted Space setting. .

Having emailed Marc a few times about it...I know that he thinks something different. But, why take everything at face value...just because it is written in one place it does not mean that it is not overlaid with another level of complexity. Look at the Primordials from Knightfall, they were not the Ancients but they were pre-Ancients. Also, the Droyne are credited according to Traveller lore but again what is to stop you from altering in favor of the First Ones or similar group.

The precursor races should be just as numerious as minor races are in the contemporary OTU.

I agree that they should be more varied in a non-OTU setting, though not quite THAT common. I'd settle for four or five precursor races, going back a couple of billion years. Some may be ultratech, maybe some weren't but still left ruins (most likely on airless rockballs, because anything from that far back left on a habitable world would have been destroyed by tectonism and erosion).[/quote]

Too true. That's the spirit. Now go forth and create...more wonders and don't be hampered by canon. Certainly, I don't think Mongoose takes that tack.

 

[EDG]

But then they'd be, at best, shards of tech. Airless worlds tend to get pummelled by meteorites and micro-meteorites and covered by space dust.

Well, if they're built underground they'd still survive a while. And most of the heaby bombardment is done early in the planetary system's history. But yes, a two billion year old structure or artefact is probably going to be lucky to survive that long - it'd have to be stored in very unusual circumstances.

Even the "one and a half billion years old" item from Beltstrike is a bit of a stretch. To put it in perspective, one and a half billion years ago the Earth was in the middle of the Proterozoic Era - the most complex life on earth were eukaryote bacteria and cyanobacteria.

 

[GypsyComet]

And the thought of encountering one of them would be terrifying, even to the Zhodani.

Especially to the Zhodani, who are, for all the Imperial propaganda to the contrary, strong believers in the phrase "With great power comes great responsibility." To have such a powerful mind come along, pre-equipped to push all of the right buttons to be accepted by the Zhodani, that thinks only of taking that social structure for all it will give, would damage or destroy the foundations of Zhodani culture for generations.

What worries me more than this particular item within the TU is what it represents within Mongoose, however. Some of these familiar tropes are being visited by MGT with little or no subtlety involved, and eventually someone with the ability to get past the "talk to the finger, we're British" approach to IP is going to notice.

I'm also worried that Mongoose might think this stuff will go unnoticed because "nobody reads those books anymore."

Inevitably it also damages the OTU by muddying it with other IP. Proper subtlety and adjustment when bringing in things like ringworlds or a Long Night, or references to Psychohistory, can add to the setting, and all of these have in the past. Dropping an entire book by someone into place with little adjustment is NOT going to add to the setting.

For a prior example I point at one of the adventure books written for T4. The adventure was written by the creator of Gamma World and Metamorphosis Alpha, and it shows in every detail. The adventure is useless as an OTU work as a result.

 

[EDG]

Having emailed Marc a few times about it...I know that he thinks something different.

Well, what he says in private doesn't really matter for the rest of us - it's what's said in print that is "canon" when it comes to the OTU.

Look at the Primordials from Knightfall, they were not the Ancients but they were pre-Ancients.

IIRC those were a DGP idea, and it died with them. I think they did explain where they were planning to go with that in MTJ#4, but I can't recall what they said.

Also, the Droyne are credited according to Traveller lore but again what is to stop you from altering in favor of the First Ones or similar group.

Nothing. But then it's an ATU, not the Charted Space OTU. You seemed to be arguing that the Ancients themselves should be changed in the OTU - well, good luck persuading Marc to do that. I can and will do whatever I like for my own settings (heck, I have done that).

 

[captainjack23]

And the thought of encountering one of them would be terrifying, even to the Zhodani.

Especially to the Zhodani, who are, for all the Imperial propaganda to the contrary, strong believers in the phrase "With great power comes great responsibility." To have such a powerful mind come along, pre-equipped to push all of the right buttons to be accepted by the Zhodani, that thinks only of taking that social structure for all it will give, would damage or destroy the foundations of Zhodani culture for generations.

In all truth, I suspect that the Zhodani may see it as a messianic redemption, given their collective guilt about the local Droyne -to discover, for certain that the ancients were droyne, and that grandfather lives......well, it seems like they may be the perfect willing tool for him. Which, if one surmises that GF is actively manipulating things, or at least has set up potential tools as a fallback, may explain why the Zhodani are who they are.

What worries me more than this particular item within the TU is what it represents within Mongoose, however. Some of these familiar tropes are being visited by MGT with little or no subtlety involved, and eventually someone with the ability to get past the "talk to the finger, we're British" approach to IP is going to notice.

I'm also worried that Mongoose might think this stuff will go unnoticed because "nobody reads those books anymore."

Inevitably it also damages the OTU by muddying it with other IP. Proper subtlety and adjustment when bringing in things like ringworlds or a Long Night, or references to Psychohistory, can add to the setting, and all of these have in the past. Dropping an entire book by someone into place with little adjustment is NOT going to add to the setting..

I'm honestly baffled as to where the above comes from; what book is it that you're concerned about ? There are plenty of unsubtle elements of classic Traveller, and plenty of muddy IP (ringworlds, for instance); not to mention a straightforward commitment to also doing a more generic traveller. Here's the issue: in theory, and I'm pretty sure in fact, all MGT has to be passed by Marc, and doesn't see the light of day otherwise. So one has to assume that either he likes it for what it adds, or from his viewpoint, that its not particularly important enough to damage the setting or game; and I intentionally do not use the term OTU or canon, because I think that he (and most of the other elder ones)are far less concerned with literary canon than with having a good setting; good being defined by their terms, obviously.

So, I doubt enormously that this is "talk to the finger, we're british" just dumping stuff in and moving on; Marc has to be compliant either in fact or in omission. Despite some descriptions of him as being rigid and unyielding, I think that the history and current state of Traveller does support that he is willing to sacrifice canon for setting where necessary -for instance, to improve it. The trouble is, and it's possible that this is obvious at this point ( ), not everyone agrees on "where neccessary" is.

Its a common issue with fandom and creators, all the way from abstract art to garage band rock and roll, and includes literature and game design. If one stays the same, one is condemned for becoming static and self derivative -if one changes, one is accused to destroying consistency and selling out. Typically this is of most concern to fans and critics, but, most creators have to deal with it eventually -and then, too much attention becomes condemned as fanservice, or too little as arrogance.

For me, my key is: do I enjoy the new direction on its own ? But as I've mentioned modern art, and literary criticism, its time to move on before the explosion.
.

For a prior example I point at one of the adventure books written for T4. The adventure was written by the creator of Gamma World and Metamorphosis Alpha, and it shows in every detail. The adventure is useless as an OTU work as a result.

Yeah, that was full of fail, but it's an extreme example, in a situation where Marc wasn't exercising sufficient oversite of his IP -until it was too late, IIRC.

Honestly, it seems very likely that there are going to be changes that will be intolerable to some, but mostly invisible to much of the audience, and intentionally invisible to the rest. What I don't think is that they are going to be slipped in by a bunch of punk NooBriT authors; what I do think is that it'll be a good setting with some flaws. Like all that is created well by mortal man.

 

[EDG]

eventually someone with the ability to get past the "talk to the finger, we're British" approach to IP is going to notice.

I have to ask WTF you are talking about here. Where exactly do they have a "talk to the finger, we're British" attitude - as if that's even a uniquely "British attitude". And speaking as a Brit, I find that comment rather offensive.

I'm also worried that Mongoose might think this stuff will go unnoticed because "nobody reads those books anymore."

Well clearly someone noticed it to comment on it, so you're wrong there.

Inevitably it also damages the OTU by muddying it with other IP. Proper subtlety and adjustment when bringing in things like ringworlds or a Long Night, or references to Psychohistory, can add to the setting, and all of these have in the past.

So it's OK for Marc to rip off Isaac Asimov and Larry Niven wholesale (without even really filing the serial numbers off), but not OK for Mongoose (if they did copy Niven)?

Dropping an entire book by someone into place with little adjustment is NOT going to add to the setting.

What "entire book" did Mongoose drop in exactly? I presume you've actually read Beltstrike, yes?

 

[EDG]

And can we stop beating around the bush here? From the sounds of it, the artifact in Beltstrike is a Stasis Field, containing a long extinct race that sounds like it's similar to the Thrintun from Larry Niven's Known Space books, right?

I've not read Beltstrike yet, but it sounds like the only person claiming it's actually directly ripped off from Larry Niven is alex_greene. For all I know it may just be a bit similar but not the total ripoff that he implies it to be.

 

[GypsyComet]

For Beltstrike, the lift is from Niven's "World of Ptaavs" and/or "The Slaver Weapon".

As for ringworlds, the old core OTU has exactly one, it isn't finished, and thus isn't a setting breaker like Niven's became. Both Paranoia Press' and SJG's attempts to add ringworlds (though PP's came first, but was a habitable example) read a lot more like unimaginative fanboyism than the Leenitakot Ringworld in the Hinterworlds.

Similarly, the addition of "Dense Low" and "Thin High" atmospheres are a direct homage to Niven's "A Gift from Earth" and the world Canyon from Ringworld Engineers, and the egg-shaped atmosphere code a reference to Jinx and the Medea Project, but GDW didn't go name worlds to match. Subtle.

The many references to the Dumarest Saga get a bit more of a pass, despite being numerous, due to the relative obscurity of the series.

 

[GypsyComet]

Where exactly do they have a "talk to the finger, we're British" attitude - as if that's even a uniquely "British attitude". And speaking as a Brit, I find that comment rather offensive.

Sorry, that's shorthand for "We aren't under American IP law." Heck, *I* want to give American IP law the finger, and that's because I live there... er, here.

 

[EDG]

As for ringworlds, the old core OTU has exactly one, it isn't finished, and thus isn't a setting breaker like Niven's became.

Niven only had one too, didn't he? (oh, and a whole mobile rosette of planets too).

Both Paranoia Press' and SJG's attempts to add ringworlds (though PP's came first, but was a habitable example) read a lot more like unimaginative fanboyism than the Leenitakot Ringworld in the Hinterworlds.

I don't know about SJG's ringworld... they had a partially completed Dyson Sphere out in the Nooq sector, which didn't seem unoriginal to me.

Similarly, the addition of "Dense Low" and "Thin High" atmospheres are a direct homage to Niven's "A Gift from Earth" and the world Canyon from Ringworld Engineers, and the egg-shaped atmosphere code a reference to Jinx and the Medea Project, but GDW didn't go name worlds to match. Subtle.

Larry Niven doesn't have a monopoly on those. Sure, they may have nicked the idea from him, but they're physically possible (assuming the right combination of topography and scale height) so they're not uniquely his idea. Except for the egg-shaped atmosphere, which is not possible.

TBH I find the Asimov Foundation ripoffs to be much more glaring. He ripped off psychohistory completely, and even had one of the Emperors in the 3I called Cleon (and that's not exactly a common name either, so it's hardly coincidence).

 

[GypsyComet]

Except for the egg-shaped atmosphere, which is not possible.

Its an atmo code, but its actually the planet that is egg-shaped. The spherical atmosphere then effectively creates bands of differing atmospheric pressure around the non-spherical rock body.

Unlikely, to be sure, but present in at least two cases in SF. The Medea Project is now sadly rather obscure, but was the first shared world project in SF&F, predating Thieves World by a decade.

Because it was a late addition to the atmosphere codes, it is probably falsely weighted towards larger worlds. All three special atmosphere models probably need to be pulled out of the atmo roll.

 

[captainjack23]

TBH I find the Asimov Foundation ripoffs to be much more glaring. He ripped off psychohistory completely, and even had one of the Emperors in the 3I called Cleon (and that's not exactly a common name either, so it's hardly coincidence).

Actually, if you are greek, or familiar with classical political history, as both Asimov and Marc were, and you are apparently not, it is very common. Its a famous greek name, still used to this day -in fact i have aGreek relative named Cleon - and not named by MWM as far as I can tell.
A two second search on Google confirmed my memory of the key example, an opponent to Perecles:
Cleon (Greek: Κλέων, sometimes Kleon) (d. 422 BC) was an Athenian statesman and a Strategos during the Peloponnesian War. He was the first prominent representative of the commercial class in Athenian politics, although he was an aristocrat himself. Contemporaries Thucydides and Aristophanes represented him as a warmonger and a demagogue; modern historians are often more constrasted.(Wikapedia)

And considering the rest, Psychohistory is an actual, if archaic branch of sociology very popular in the 1920's and 30's. Asimov specifically referenced it in several of his comments on the subjects. It took a bit longer than two seconds to find references online, largely due to SF fan sites, but here's a good basic link: http://www.psychohistory.com/

As to riffing the rest of foundation, I'm surprised that someone who (as you admit about a year ago on this forum) didn't realize that trantor was a world city with a huge population could have read them closely enough to draw more than a superficial comparison. Asimov himself describes the whole setting as an extended recapitulation of the late Roman empire specifically swiped from Gibbons' version . Its a good read if you're interested in the subject -though sorely lacking in car crashes and gunfights..

I'll politely suggest that you'll have to try a bit harder if you want to accuse people of plagarism, which is what "ripping off" means; to do so reasonably, facts help more than emotional responses, as does being right. And, while we all want to be pundits, one does have to do the reading, at the very least.

 

[captainjack23]

Because it was a late addition to the atmosphere codes, it is probably falsely weighted towards larger worlds. All three special atmosphere models probably need to be pulled out of the atmo roll.

Agreed there. Functionally they are better described as exotics. Or not.

 

[EDG]

I'll politely suggest that you'll have to try a bit harder if you want to accuse people of plagarism, which is what "ripping off" means; to do so reasonably, facts help more than emotional responses, as does being right. And, while we all want to be pundits, one does have to do the reading, at the very least.

Wow, I don't think you could get any more patronising and condescending. And yet you're very vocal in criticising me for accusing people of plagiarism, but not Gypsycomet or alex_greene. I guess you still can't resist taking potshots at me, can you.

And actually I *am* Greek, and the only people I know in my very large, extended greek family with a name that even sounds like that are called - and call themselves - Kleo (short for Kleanthous). But I've never heard of a Cleon. Not to say that the historical one didn't exist or that people don't have that name, but it clearly ain't as common as you think.

But either way that's not even remotely relevant - I think it's a bit more than a coincidence that the Emperor in Foundation was called Cleon and the first Emperor of the 3I also happened to be called Cleon. Using that name on its own is one thing, but giving them the same social position, as leader of a huge interstellar empire? That's REALLY suspicious. Maybe he did it as a homage, but it was so blatant to me when I saw the name in Foundation that I was amazed he got away with it.

As for psychohistory - again, if Cleon was nicked from Foundation (as it clearly was), then so was psychohistory - hardly anyone had even heard of psychohistory before Asimov came along. Not to mention the whole idea of big starfaring empires collapsing into long nights and recovering, which was also a key concept in Asimov's Foundation books (and oh look, there it is in the OTU as well).

Oh and real psychohistory is defined as follows on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychohistory :

Psychohistory is the study of the psychological motivations of historical events. It combines the insights of psychotherapy with the research methodology of the social sciences to understand the emotional origin of the social and political behavior of groups and nations, past and present. Its subject matter is childhood and the family (especially child abuse), and psychological studies of anthropology and ethnology.

Psychohistory derives many of its insights from areas that are perceived to be ignored by conventional historians as shaping factors of human history, in particular, the effects of childbirth, parenting practice, and child abuse. The historical impact of incest, infanticide and child sacrifice are considered. Psychohistory holds that human societies can change between infanticidal and non-infanticidal practices and has coined the term "early infanticidal childrearing" to describe abuse and neglect observed by many anthropologists. Lloyd deMause, the pioneer of psychohistory, has described a system of psychogenic modes (see below) which describe the range of styles of parenting he has observed historically and across cultures.

Asimov's psychohistory is (from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychohistory_(fictional) ):

Psychohistory depends on the idea that, while one cannot foresee the actions of a particular individual, the laws of statistics as applied to large groups of people could predict the general flow of future events. Asimov used the analogy of a gas: an observer has great difficulty in predicting the motion of a single molecule in a gas, but can predict the mass action of the gas to a high level of accuracy.

You'll also note there's a quote from an interview with Asimov there that specifically asks him about where he got the idea from, and he doesn't mention anything about borrowing the idea from any realworld subject. He just figured that sooner or later someone would make a science out of predicting the rise and fall and stability of civilisations.


And then we have Traveller's psychohistory (from Supplement 11 Library data N-Z):

The science of historical prediction and macro-social manipulation. The main thesis of psychohistory is that the actions of trillions of individuals take on a fluidity and predictability which can be compared to that of molecules in a gas. The very size of the population being dealt with factors out individual peculiarities, and allows the prediction of its behavior. With the ability to predict the reaction of a population to a particular stimulus comes the ability to manipulate that population, psychohistorians reason.

The Traveller one even mentions the same gas analogy for crying out loud - so it's very clearly a complete rip off of the Asimov concept and has absolutely nothing to do with the real subject (which is concerned more with how parents treat children and how children are treated in society).


So I've got the facts right there, and I'm right about them. Oh my, you do appear to have fallen rather heavily off that very tall horse you were riding in on... perhaps you should actually take more than a few seconds to just find a few links and actually do some deeper research into them before you start inflating your head again. I mean, jeebus, even a cursory glance at the page you linked to shows that it very clearly is not even slightly related to Asimov's psychohistory.


If you don't think Marc ripped off a lot of ideas from Foundation, then you either haven't read it, or you are phenomenally clueless, or you're just plain in denial. It was clearly a very big influence on the OTU, and Marc clearly "borrowed" a few concepts from it, some more blatantly than others. But I don't think even he would deny that.

 

[EDG]

Because it was a late addition to the atmosphere codes, it is probably falsely weighted towards larger worlds. All three special atmosphere models probably need to be pulled out of the atmo roll.

Wrong. D and F atmospheres are in fact realistically only possible on larger/more massive worlds. The Ellipsoid one is still complete nonsense though.