Ancient robot brains size extremely large

[rinku]

TLDR: Lower rated brains in big enough robots don't need a slot. Otherwise they take up one slot.

(Modified by TL, if the brain being used is a lower tech rating manufactured at a higher tech. You can stick a TL12 rated brain of Computer/2 into a size 0 TL14 bot for no slot cost)

 

[Terry Mixon]

I must have missed that, can you cite the reference? I thought the cap of 3 applied to skill packages regardless of the brain using it*.

Conscious robots could learn skills like any other sophont, but these are limited to level 0 (and therefore do not take up bandwidth)

There comes a point where the cost of the package becomes prohibitive anyway. If you were able to go up to skill 5 then by extrapolation even the cheapest skill package would cost MCr10.

* Of course you can upgrade the intelligence of the TL18 brain so it is INT 18 (for only a 10% cost increase and 6 bandwidth) and get an effective +4 skill boost for a total effective skill of 7. For DEX based skills you might be able to get even higher as a TL18 robot could be upgrades to as high as DEX 21 (at exorbitant cost) for DM+5.

I chanced across what I was remembering, but in High Guard rather than the Robot Handbook, talking about the Conscious Intelligence program. Bolding mine.

A Conscious Intelligence is far more than a basic Intellect package or a mere artificial intelligence. A Conscious Intelligence is a fully aware, completely sentient digital being, capable of thought, deduction, analysis and, it appears in every measurable way, emotion. A Conscious Intelligence is treated as a computer-bound Traveller with INT 15 and EDU 15, with a range of skills that can be uploaded, changed and improved (typically in the skill level 3–5 range). The Conscious Intelligence will have a name, an easily recognisable personality and is considered, by all ways except the biological, alive.

While it is not conclusive that it would be the same for the robotic Conscious Intelligence, I find it hard to separate the behavior and skill limits of the two. Your mileage might still vary, but if it is good for one version, I think it should be applicable to both as they are both considered alive like Travellers.

 

[swordtart]

A Conscious Intelligence is far more than a basic Intellect package or a mere artificial intelligence. A Conscious Intelligence is a fully aware, completely sentient digital being, capable of thought, deduction, analysis and, it appears in every measurable way, emotion. A Conscious Intelligence is treated as a computer-bound Traveller with INT 15 and EDU 15, with a range of skills that can be uploaded, changed and improved (typically in the skill level 3–5 range). The Conscious Intelligence will have a name, an easily recognisable personality and is considered, by all ways except the biological, alive.

None of that is incompatible with requiring skill packages to be installed. With the +3 DM a skill package level 0-3 would give a final skill range of 3-6. Unloaded, changed and improved is compatible with swapping out packages.

A Sophont with no training or skills is no less conscious than one with a raft of skills and having a name and personality is not indicative of an ability to learn a skill. Pets have names and personalities so that is not that high a bar.

I would allow Advanced+ robots to attempt skills for which they have no skill package (at the usual -3 for being untrained) as they can learn new skills at level 0. Less advanced robots can only attempt skills for which they have a skill package as they cannot learn skills at all.

 

[Terry Mixon]

None of that is incompatible with requiring skill packages to be installed. With the +3 DM a skill package level 0-3 would give a final skill range of 3-6. Unloaded, changed and improved is compatible with swapping out packages.

A Sophont with no training or skills is no less conscious than one with a raft of skills and having a name and personality is not indicative of an ability to learn a skill. Pets have names and personalities so that is not that high a bar.

I would allow Advanced+ robots to attempt skills for which they have no skill package (at the usual -3 for being untrained) as they can learn new skills at level 0. Less advanced robots can only attempt skills for which they have a skill package as they cannot learn skills at all.

It may not be incompatible, but I find it suggestive that the alive beings are not capped by an arbitrary limit imposed on lesser programs/brains. As I said earlier, it could go either way. We just have different views on which way it would break.

 

[rinku]

The High Guard entry is for ship computers, which don't have the size limits a bot has. I'd also point out that High Guard especially doesn't venture into ultra tech levels very much; the TL18 version of Conscious Intelligence is the highest it ventures - the hardware is capped at TL15. So it's not really into the "machine intelligence capacity exceeds biological intelligence capacity" zone. Yet.

 

[Terry Mixon]

The High Guard entry is for ship computers, which don't have the size limits a bot has. I'd also point out that High Guard especially doesn't venture into ultra tech levels very much; the TL18 version of Conscious Intelligence is the highest it ventures - the hardware is capped at TL15. So it's not really into the "machine intelligence capacity exceeds biological intelligence capacity" zone. Yet.

The CI robots are TL 17 and TL18, right in line with the High Guard program tech levels.

 

[rinku]

Yep. So just baby Minds, in Banksian Culture terms. Probably still Drone level.

 

[Terry Mixon]

None of that is incompatible with requiring skill packages to be installed. With the +3 DM a skill package level 0-3 would give a final skill range of 3-6. Unloaded, changed and improved is compatible with swapping out packages.

A Sophont with no training or skills is no less conscious than one with a raft of skills and having a name and personality is not indicative of an ability to learn a skill. Pets have names and personalities so that is not that high a bar.

I would allow Advanced+ robots to attempt skills for which they have no skill package (at the usual -3 for being untrained) as they can learn new skills at level 0. Less advanced robots can only attempt skills for which they have a skill package as they cannot learn skills at all.

I was looking for something else in the Robot Handbook and chanced across something relevant to this discussion. I don't expect it will change your mind, but I wanted to add it. From page 228. Bolding mine.

Android, Superior
Still an experimental development, the Superior Android is a robot designed to mimic sentient beings in every way bar one – free will. These robots can pass themselves off as human (or any other species), although they are typically marked in some way so confusion does not arise, and designed to be employed in tasks that would normally require sentience but are repetitive, unpleasant or dangerous. This includes long-ranged exploration, advanced construction and pleasure duties. Superior Androids can be programmed with any skill or range of skills, up to level 4. These androids are powered by a shielded short duration R TG, allowing completely independent field operations for five years, a built-in obsolesce feature which adds considerably to their cost, but provides a safety valve to ensure these highly advanced robots do not develop in unexpected directions.

That's a TL16 item. For TL17-18 Conscious Intelligences, even if they are still limited to set skill levels, it could be argued that 1-5 wasn't out of line. Ot maybe it's the body that says what can be in it and it would have the above cap if in a Superior Android body, which seems weird, but it is listed here rather than the brains.

 

[swordtart]

I was looking for something else in the Robot Handbook and chanced across something relevant to this discussion. I don't expect it will change your mind, but I wanted to add it. From page 228. Bolding mine.

Android, Superior
Still an experimental development, the Superior Android is a robot designed to mimic sentient beings in every way bar one – free will. These robots can pass themselves off as human (or any other species), although they are typically marked in some way so confusion does not arise, and designed to be employed in tasks that would normally require sentience but are repetitive, unpleasant or dangerous. This includes long-ranged exploration, advanced construction and pleasure duties. Superior Androids can be programmed with any skill or range of skills, up to level 4. These androids are powered by a shielded short duration R TG, allowing completely independent field operations for five years, a built-in obsolesce feature which adds considerably to their cost, but provides a safety valve to ensure these highly advanced robots do not develop in unexpected directions.

That's a TL16 item. For TL17-18 Conscious Intelligences, even if they are still limited to set skill levels, it could be argued that 1-5 wasn't out of line. Ot maybe it's the body that says what can be in it and it would have the above cap if in a Superior Android body, which seems weird, but it is listed here rather than the brains.

Thank you for the citation that makes things much easier to discuss.

This appears in a specific robot rather than in the android design rule section. Not all the robot designs are in accordance with the design rules so this could simply be a typo or error. The brain for an android also costs 3 times a conventional self aware brain so this might be a specific android benefit, but it is not mentioned in the section in android design rules.

The precedent is that the INT modifier is included in the skill level in the example droids. The highlighted sentence could therefore simply refer to effective skill level (which would imply they are actually limited to level 2 skill packages given the DM+2 for INT).

I am still having trouble getting past the absolute limit of 3 for the level of skill package stated on p73 (which mirrors the absolute limit for Expert packages in CSC).

 

[Terry Mixon]

Thank you for the citation that makes things much easier to discuss.

This appears in a specific robot rather than in the android design rule section. Not all the robot designs are in accordance with the design rules so this could simply be a typo or error. The brain for an android also costs 3 times a conventional self aware brain so this might be a specific android benefit, but it is not mentioned in the section in android design rules.

The precedent is that the INT modifier is included in the skill level in the example droids. The highlighted sentence could therefore simply refer to effective skill level (which would imply they are actually limited to level 2 skill packages given the DM+2 for INT).

I am still having trouble getting past the absolute limit of 3 for the level of skill package stated on p73 (which mirrors the absolute limit for Expert packages in CSC).

I have no idea what they meant, but the explicit use of the word level implies it might exceed the skill level boundaries you mentioned earlier.

The stat DMs for INT add to the level but aren’t a level themselves. Again, everyone has to guess since they don’t spell it out and it settles nothing, but I find it interesting.

It seems wrong that a TL16 robot would be limited to a skill package of 2 where lower TL could have 3. Just saying. Of course, this robot doesn’t even have a self-aware brain, but earlier brains aren’t capped at skill package level 2.

If we’re lucky, @Geir could help us understand what the rules mean, but I expect he is busy with the Rules Compendium. Maybe he could clear it up there.

There is a table with lines for more advanced bodies. I wonder if they would have higher skill package limits.

 

[swordtart]

The brain is largely irrelevant.

I have no idea what they meant, but the explicit use of the word level implies it might exceed the skill level boundaries you mentioned earlier.

The word level is used elsewhere without that implication.

"No robot skill packages may exceed level 3 and robot brains cannot process skills that require more than a brain’s inherent (not expanded) Bandwidth."

RH p73 is pretty uneqviocal.

The stat DMs for INT add to the level but aren’t a level themselves. Again, everyone has to guess since they don’t spell it out and it settles nothing, but I find it interesting.

"The characteristic associated with a skill can provide an additional DM to checks. For simplicity, this DM is included in the final skill determination of the robot as listed in the skills row of its description."

RH p73 is pretty uneqviocal.

It seems wrong that a TL16 robot would be limited to a skill package of 2 where lower TL could have 3. Just saying.

It may just reflect a design preference (or a cost reality). None of the other Self-Aware or Conscious examples that specify their skills have any that would require a even a level 3 package, though that is certainly possible. This particular example is clearly an emulation of a Blade Runner replicant. It may have appeared in an exiting publication and the Skill Level limit a function of that original source.

Of course, this robot doesn’t even have a self-aware brain, but earlier brains aren’t capped at skill package level 2.

Which robot? The Superior Android we were discussing does have a Self-Aware brain.

There is a table with lines for more advanced bodies. I wonder if they would have higher skill package limits.

The Skill Package limit of 3 is not a function of the brain it operates in. It is an absolute limit in package complexity. A TL13 Very Advanced brain could run a level 4 skill package if such a thing existed as it has the necessary 4 bandwidth to accommodate it. Skill-4 packages just don't exist.

The challenge of tasks is not supposed to be managed by DMs it is supposed to be managed by setting a Difficulty. It is those difficulties that differentiate the increasing capability of the higher brains, not getting +5 on a routine task.

The ability of brains to attempt more complex tasks is determined by the level of their Expert software. Advanced Brains and above can attempt Difficult tasks. It needs at least Very Advanced Brains to perform Very Difficult tasks. Self-Aware brains can attempt Formidable tasks. A Conscious brain can attempt tasks of any difficulty.

The only way to manage this is by a single shift in difficulty as a result of taking more time (or increasing the difficulty by going faster).

Whilst is is not stated explicitly it follows that Basic brains can only perform Average tasks. Whether Primitive brains are limited to Routine tasks or can also Manage average tasks is unclear.

 

[Terry Mixon]

The brain is largely irrelevant.

The word level is used elsewhere without that implication.

"No robot skill packages may exceed level 3 and robot brains cannot process skills that require more than a brain’s inherent (not expanded) Bandwidth."

RH p73 is pretty uneqviocal.

"The characteristic associated with a skill can provide an additional DM to checks. For simplicity, this DM is included in the final skill determination of the robot as listed in the skills row of its description."

RH p73 is pretty uneqviocal.

It may just reflect a design preference (or a cost reality). None of the other Self-Aware or Conscious examples that specify their skills have any that would require a even a level 3 package, though that is certainly possible. This particular example is clearly an emulation of a Blade Runner replicant. It may have appeared in an exiting publication and the Skill Level limit a function of that original source.

Which robot? The Superior Android we were discussing does have a Self-Aware brain.

The Skill Package limit of 3 is not a function of the brain it operates in. It is an absolute limit in package complexity. A TL13 Very Advanced brain could run a level 4 skill package if such a thing existed as it has the necessary 4 bandwidth to accommodate it. Skill-4 packages just don't exist.

The challenge of tasks is not supposed to be managed by DMs it is supposed to be managed by setting a Difficulty. It is those difficulties that differentiate the increasing capability of the higher brains, not getting +5 on a routine task.

The ability of brains to attempt more complex tasks is determined by the level of their Expert software. Advanced Brains and above can attempt Difficult tasks. It needs at least Very Advanced Brains to perform Very Difficult tasks. Self-Aware brains can attempt Formidable tasks. A Conscious brain can attempt tasks of any difficulty.

The only way to manage this is by a single shift in difficulty as a result of taking more time (or increasing the difficulty by going faster).

Whilst is is not stated explicitly it follows that Basic brains can only perform Average tasks. Whether Primitive brains are limited to Routine tasks or can also Manage average tasks is unclear.

You're correct about the brain. I misread.

As I said up front, I knew I wasn't going to change your mind and as before, you've failed to change mine. To each their own unless they clarify what all this really means.